old suntour vs. new low level shimano

[big Pete]

Hi all

I have a 86 bianchi strada lx 62 cm steel lugged frame. I really lik
this bike. Would it be worth while to upgrade the components on it. I
has the original suntour group on it. This group has the friction inde
shifters if that helps. How would I go about upgrading this. I wa
thinking low level shimano would fit my budget. My main assumption her
is that new low level technology is better than old mid to hig
technology because of technology creep (ie. the tech in the high en
get passed down to the low end as the high end gets better). Also an
info on the suntour group that I have on it now (original components
would be helpful. What is the advantage of the old over the new? Wha
is the advantage of the new over the old?

Thank you very much

Pet

--
big Pete

[Gonzo Bob]

Which SunTour group is it? If it's Superbe, that stuff is terrible.
You should replace with ShimaNO and send the SunTour stuff to me ;)

Seriously though, SunTour indexing is good stuff. I've got GPX 7-spee
stuff on one of my bikes and I like it a lot

--
Gonzo Bob

[Phil Brown]

Seriously though, SunTour indexing is good stuff. I've got GPX 7-speed
stuff on one of my bikes and I like it a lot.

Yeah, but it's much touchier than Shimano. If it's working OK I'd leave it.
Replacing the entire drivetrain-less crnks because you really don't need to
change them-will be very expensive. Cheaper to buy a used bike with the stuff
you want, transfer the parts and off the frame.
Phil Brown

[Evan Evans]

Post by Gonzo Bob
Which SunTour group is it? If it's Superbe, that stuff is terrible.
You should replace with ShimaNO and send the SunTour stuff to me ;)
Seriously though, SunTour indexing is good stuff. I've got GPX 7-speed
stuff on one of my bikes and I like it a lot.

The cheepest of the new is 100 times better than the best of the old
no question. If you like vintage stuff keep the bianchi as is. But buy
a new bike. Besides if you plan to ride much at all you will be
putting yourself at risk riding old fatigued parts. Bikes are not
ment to last forever & they won't. Not worth the emergancy room visit.

[Phil Brown]

Post by Evan Evans
The cheepest of the new is 100 times better than the best of the old
no question. If you like vintage stuff keep the bianchi as is. But buy
a new bike. Besides if you plan to ride much at all you will be
putting yourself at risk riding old fatigued parts. Bikes are not
ment to last forever & they won't. Not worth the emergancy room visit.

First, your statement about the cheapest of the new stuff being 100 times
better than the best of the old is just absurd. Campy NR and SR and the last of
the Simplex stuff were some of the finest parts ever produced and work fine
today, in fact did work fine on my ride today. And, barring stems and
handlebars, if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. I've been riding for more
than 40 years and I know of NO broken or fatigued parts except bars and stems
failing and they are a known failure item, at least the aluminium ones. and the
notion of Suntour parts being dangerous isn't even worth dignifing with a
response.
Phil Brown

[SoCalMike]

Post by Phil Brown
today, in fact did work fine on my ride today. And, barring stems and
handlebars, if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. I've been riding for more
than 40 years and I know of NO broken or fatigued parts except bars and stems
failing and they are a known failure item,

i wonder if theres going to be a rash of carbon fiber fork/frame
fractures in 20 years or so?

[Evan Evans]

Post by Phil Brown

Post by Evan Evans
The cheepest of the new is 100 times better than the best of the old
no question. If you like vintage stuff keep the bianchi as is. But buy
a new bike. Besides if you plan to ride much at all you will be
putting yourself at risk riding old fatigued parts. Bikes are not
ment to last forever & they won't. Not worth the emergancy room visit.

First, your statement about the cheapest of the new stuff being 100 times
better than the best of the old is just absurd. Campy NR and SR and the last of
the Simplex stuff were some of the finest parts ever produced and work fine
today, in fact did work fine on my ride today. And, barring stems and
handlebars, if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. I've been riding for more
than 40 years and I know of NO broken or fatigued parts except bars and stems
failing and they are a known failure item, at least the aluminium ones. and the
notion of Suntour parts being dangerous isn't even worth dignifing with a
response.
Phil Brown

First off Shimano Sora one of the cheapest groups available today is
much better in terms of proformance & is lighter than anthing produced
20 years ago.

Second , I'm not saying suntour is dangerous on its own but any 20
year old parts can be stems & bars included. I have seen plenty of
broken crank arms from fatigue. I have seen campagnolo sr / nr break .
It happens. I think the site "Campy only" has a segment about fatigued
parts. maybe you should check it out.

[Evan Evans]

Post by Phil Brown
if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. > Phil Brown

http://www.campyonly.com/mypages/retrobike.html

[bfd]

Post by Evan Evans

Post by Phil Brown
if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. > Phil Brown

http://www.campyonly.com/mypages/retrobike.html

That's just one example. Actually, the better site for broken cranks and bb
is:

http://pardo.net/pardo/bike/pic/fail/FAIL-001.html

http://pardo.net/pardo/bike/pic/fail/000.html

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

Post by bfd
http://pardo.net/pardo/bike/pic/fail/FAIL-001.html

Thanks for the link. This is a great statement from the page:

"Campag cranks were the vast majority of failures because they saw the
really serious miles. Victims were sure not to stray from Campag for
fear of even worse experiences. The more of their cranks you broke the
more you recommended to others like yourself to use nothing else."

JT

[Phil Brown]

Post by Evan Evans

Post by Phil Brown
if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. > Phil Brown

http://www.campyonly.com/mypages/retrobike.html

Sorry, I thought we were talking about sudden failures here. The cited crank
had a a crack through about a third of the crank-the dark area-before it
failed. The owner of these cranks put himself in the hospital by not checking
his equipment every once in a while. And I have never seen a broken crank that
didn't exibit signs of abuse, usually grounded pedal eyes.
Phil Brown

[Evan Evans]

Post by Phil Brown

Post by Evan Evans

Post by Phil Brown
if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. > Phil Brown

http://www.campyonly.com/mypages/retrobike.html

Sorry, I thought we were talking about sudden failures here. The cited crank
had a a crack through about a third of the crank-the dark area-before it
failed. The owner of these cranks put himself in the hospital by not checking
his equipment every once in a while. And I have never seen a broken crank that
didn't exibit signs of abuse, usually grounded pedal eyes.
Phil Brown

Nice save!

[RonSonic]

Post by Phil Brown

Post by Evan Evans

Post by Phil Brown
if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. > Phil Brown

http://www.campyonly.com/mypages/retrobike.html

Sorry, I thought we were talking about sudden failures here. The cited crank
had a a crack through about a third of the crank-the dark area-before it
failed. The owner of these cranks put himself in the hospital by not checking
his equipment every once in a while. And I have never seen a broken crank that
didn't exibit signs of abuse, usually grounded pedal eyes.

Bingo.

Even though the text that goes with that picture says there was no sign of
failure, the discolored portion tells us there was a significant crack there to
be seen by anyone looking.

Ron

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

Post by Phil Brown
First, your statement about the cheapest of the new stuff being 100 times
better than the best of the old is just absurd. Campy NR and SR and the last of

It's true that these were beautiful cold-forged jewels, but they don't
last forever. In fact, for their quality level they probably broke a
lot.

Post by Phil Brown
the Simplex stuff were some of the finest parts ever produced

I've got Simplex retrofriction levers on some of my bikes and they are
great, but other than that what Simplex part was so good?

Post by Phil Brown
today, in fact did work fine on my ride today. And, barring stems and
handlebars, if you can cite one instance of old fatigued prts putting anyone in
the hospital I will publically retract this post. I've been riding for more
than 40 years and I know of NO broken or fatigued parts except bars and stems
failing

Jobst Brandt has reported all kinds of crank failures, including
high-end Campagnolo. I don't know about the hospital part though....

From http://yarchive.net/bike/frame_break.html
"I have ridden bikes plenty long, and in that time have had more than
two dozen Campagnolo Record cranks break, two crank spindles, 2 pedal
axles, many rear axles and a few Dura Ace cranks among other lesser
components."

JT

[Erik Brooks]

Post by John Forrest Tomlinson

Post by Phil Brown
the Simplex stuff were some of the finest parts ever produced

I've got Simplex retrofriction levers on some of my bikes and they are
great, but other than that what Simplex part was so good?
JT

The SImplex Super LJ rear derailer has been called one of the finest
RDs of all time, and better than the Campy of the period. I've got
one my early 70's Gitane TdF, and it still shifts like a dream. I'm
not going to ask it to index with a newer cassette, but for friction
shifting a freewheel of it's period, it's a real pleasure.

Erik Brooks, Seattle, who today enjoyed riding to work with mid-80s
Suntour stuff, also a pleasure.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

Post by Erik Brooks

Post by John Forrest Tomlinson

Post by Phil Brown
the Simplex stuff were some of the finest parts ever produced

I've got Simplex retrofriction levers on some of my bikes and they are
great, but other than that what Simplex part was so good?
JT

The SImplex Super LJ rear derailer has been called one of the finest
RDs of all time, and better than the Campy of the period.

I agree it's better than the Campagnolo of the time, but even the
cheapest Shimano derailluer nowadays works just was well, if not
better.

JT

[David Damerell]

Post by Evan Evans
The cheepest of the new is 100 times better than the best of the old

That's tripe. I'd take 80s friction shifting over very low-end modern
gear, because the latter will be index-only and it will constantly get
mis-indexed.

Post by Evan Evans
a new bike. Besides if you plan to ride much at all you will be
putting yourself at risk riding old fatigued parts. Bikes are not
ment to last forever & they won't. Not worth the emergancy room visit.

How will a broken gear shifter land you in A&E?

[gwhite]

...the latter will be index-only and it will constantly get
mis-indexed.

I don't adjust my indexing. It just keeps working.

[David Damerell]

Post by gwhite

...the latter will be index-only and it will constantly get
mis-indexed.

I don't adjust my indexing. It just keeps working.

And do you use the very cheapest parts available? Read the thread.

[Peter Cole]

Post by David Damerell

Post by gwhite

...the latter will be index-only and it will constantly get
mis-indexed.

I don't adjust my indexing. It just keeps working.

And do you use the very cheapest parts available? Read the thread.

I don't know what the "cheapest" Shimano is, but I've used some pretty cheap
stuff. I have indexed bar-ends (8-sp) which I paid about $40 for, they have
lasted for several years and 10's of K miles without problems of any sort,
including no mis-indexing; I never adjust them. I also have put several pairs
of MTB-style, "Rapid Fire" shifter/brake lever combos on flat bar bikes (I
think I paid $15/pr); they also shift flawlessly and don't require adjustment.
Most of the bikes also have low(ish)-end (Alivio) rear derailers, which were
also very inexpensive, yet seem to be holding up very well. I think Shimano
stuff has really gotten better over the past several years, even the cheap
stuff.

[gecwhite]

Post by David Damerell

Post by gwhite

...the latter will be index-only and it will constantly get
mis-indexed.

I don't adjust my indexing. It just keeps working.

And do you use the very cheapest parts available?

Is an RSX r-der cheap enough?

[David Damerell]

Post by gecwhite

Post by David Damerell

Post by gwhite

...the latter will be index-only and it will constantly get
mis-indexed.

I don't adjust my indexing. It just keeps working.

And do you use the very cheapest parts available?

Is an RSX r-der cheap enough?

Only if it's the very cheapest available (which it's not - it's pricier
than my Tourney rder, which itself is pricier than no-name knockoffs) and
if the part that actually implements the indexing is equally low-end.

The claim I originally disputed was absurd.

[gecwhite]

Post by David Damerell

Post by gecwhite

Post by David Damerell

Post by gwhite

...the latter will be index-only and it will constantly get
mis-indexed.

I don't adjust my indexing. It just keeps working.

And do you use the very cheapest parts available?

Is an RSX r-der cheap enough?

Only if it's the very cheapest available (which it's not - it's pricier
than my Tourney rder, which itself is pricier than no-name knockoffs) and
if the part that actually implements the indexing is equally low-end.
The claim I originally disputed was absurd.

I didn't take "the cheepest" that literally. I took it more in the line
of "low level," as in the header. If the interpretation is strict, then
perhaps you're correct (I don't use that stuff), but I doubt the OP
would actually go to that low.

I've looked at "the cheepest" in department stores. It indexes
suprisingly well. Whether it holds that adjustment well is something I
may never have first hand experience with.

[RonSonic]

Post by Evan Evans

Post by Gonzo Bob
Which SunTour group is it? If it's Superbe, that stuff is terrible.
You should replace with ShimaNO and send the SunTour stuff to me ;)
Seriously though, SunTour indexing is good stuff. I've got GPX 7-speed
stuff on one of my bikes and I like it a lot.

The cheepest of the new is 100 times better than the best of the old
no question.

Oh, bullshit.

Post by Evan Evans
If you like vintage stuff keep the bianchi as is. But buy
a new bike. Besides if you plan to ride much at all you will be
putting yourself at risk riding old fatigued parts. Bikes are not
ment to last forever & they won't. Not worth the emergancy room visit.

More bullshit.

Ron

[SDMike]

Post by big Pete
Hi all
I have a 86 bianchi strada lx 62 cm steel lugged frame. I really like
this bike. Would it be worth while to upgrade the components on it. It
has the original suntour group on it. This group has the friction index
shifters if that helps. How would I go about upgrading this. I was
thinking low level shimano would fit my budget. My main assumption here
is that new low level technology is better than old mid to high
technology because of technology creep (ie. the tech in the high end
get passed down to the low end as the high end gets better). Also any
info on the suntour group that I have on it now (original components)
would be helpful. What is the advantage of the old over the new? What
is the advantage of the new over the old?
Thank you very much
Pete
--
big Pete

All ya really need is a pair of freehub wheels (with appropriate cassette),
STI/Ergo levers, compatible rear derailleur, and a new chain. The rest of the
bike you can pretty well leave alone if you wanna.

OR, if you wanna keep things more original, a pair of Sachs Ergos, compatible
derailleur, 7sp FW and chain. You may have to re-dish the rear wheel slightly,
but it shouldn't be too bad. If the shifting's not perfect, you can take the FW
apart and shave down some of the spacers to make them work better.

I dig the older Suntour stuff. It was very nicely made. Especially the Superbe
Pro. Mmmmm....

HTH,

M

[Steve-o]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:56:51 +1000, big Pete

I really like this bike.
What is the advantage of the old over the new?
What is the advantage of the new over the old?

What is the advantage of upgrading? I.e., what do you want from the
bike that it doesn't give you now? Is something broken?

[pinnah]

Post by big Pete
I have a 86 bianchi strada lx 62 cm steel lugged frame. I really like
this bike. Would it be worth while to upgrade the components on it. It
has the original suntour group on it. This group has the friction index
shifters if that helps. How would I go about upgrading this. I was
thinking low level shimano would fit my budget. My main assumption here
is that new low level technology is better than old mid to high
technology because of technology creep (ie. the tech in the high end
get passed down to the low end as the high end gets better). Also any
info on the suntour group that I have on it now (original components)
would be helpful. What is the advantage of the old over the new? What
is the advantage of the new over the old?

Pete,

Three things.....

1) If the bike is set up for 6-speed, one obvious change possible is
going to 8-speed indexed shifting. This is a big change though as it
will require, new rear hub (wheel?), new cassette, new chain and new
shifters. It will also require that you spread the frame a bit to make
it fit. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

2) If you want to keep the bike set up for 6-speed friction shifting,
you might be able to find Superpe (that stuff was awsome), Campy or
Shimano 600 or Ultegra stuff on e-bay lightly used. It is out there.
That would allow you to upgrade just the components.

3) If you are interested in selling off your Suntour stuff, I may be
interested. I'm restoring an old Trek ('82 vintage) and the drive
train components are pretty rusted up.


'best,


-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Post by big Pete
Hi all
I have a 86 bianchi strada lx 62 cm steel lugged frame. I really like
this bike. Would it be worth while to upgrade the components on it. It
has the original suntour group on it. This group has the friction index
shifters if that helps. How would I go about upgrading this. I was
thinking low level shimano would fit my budget. My main assumption here
is that new low level technology is better than old mid to high
technology because of technology creep (ie. the tech in the high end
get passed down to the low end as the high end gets better).

_ Bikes are not computers, the basic technology doesn't change
that fast... Suntour Superbe is very nice stuff
and with a little maintaince and maybe some new rims, that bike
will be as good as it ever was.

What do you want the bike to do that it doesn't do well now?
If the parts you have on it aren't worn, I don't see much
advantage in replacing them.

Post by big Pete
Also any
info on the suntour group that I have on it now (original components)
would be helpful. What is the advantage of the old over the new? What
is the advantage of the new over the old?

_ The big changes since 86 have been in the number of gears
and index shifting. I would check out Sheldon Brown's web
site to learn about some of the issues of new gear, in particular

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

_ Also, if you aren't using clipless pedals I would highly
recommend them.

_ Booker C. Bense

[Sheldon Brown]

Post by big Pete
I have a 86 bianchi strada lx 62 cm steel lugged frame. I really like
this bike. Would it be worth while to upgrade the components on it. It
has the original suntour group on it. This group has the friction index
shifters if that helps. How would I go about upgrading this. I was
thinking low level shimano would fit my budget. My main assumption here
is that new low level technology is better than old mid to high
technology because of technology creep (ie. the tech in the high end
get passed down to the low end as the high end gets better). Also any
info on the suntour group that I have on it now (original components)
would be helpful. What is the advantage of the old over the new? What
is the advantage of the new over the old?

There's a cool, little known trick if you have Sun Tour 6-speed indexing
stuff:

Install a Shimano rear derailer and a 7-speed freewheel (new chain, too)
and it will all index just fine!

The mismatch between Sun Tour and Shimano cancels out the mismatch
between 6- and 7-speed.

I've done this on quite a few bikes.

Sheldon "Breaking The Rules" Brown
+------------------------------------+
| Immigrants are not our burden, |
| They are our wealth --Jane Adams |
+------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone [phone] FAX [phone]
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[pinnah]

Post by Sheldon Brown
There's a cool, little known trick if you have Sun Tour 6-speed indexing
Install a Shimano rear derailer and a 7-speed freewheel (new chain, too)
and it will all index just fine!

Does this imply that a Shimano 7-speed freewheel will fit onto a wheel
that is spaced for a Sun Tour 6-speed freewheel without any changes to
the spacing or dishing?


-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

[Sheldon Brown]

Post by pinnah

Post by Sheldon Brown
There's a cool, little known trick if you have Sun Tour 6-speed indexing
Install a Shimano rear derailer and a 7-speed freewheel (new chain, too)
and it will all index just fine!

Does this imply that a Shimano 7-speed freewheel will fit onto a wheel
that is spaced for a Sun Tour 6-speed freewheel without any changes to
the spacing or dishing?

It's not a brand-related issue.

Generally, a 7-speed freewheel can replace a normal-width 6-speed
freewheel with little modification.

Sometimes, you _might_ need to add a washer or two to the axle.

Sheldon "Cheap Upgrade" Brown
+----------------------------------------------+
| My mind is aglow with whirling, transient |
| nodes of thought careening through a cosmic |
| vapor of invention! --Mel Brooks |
+----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone [phone] FAX [phone]
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[g.daniels]

the shim deray has a double pivot, the suntour a single.this is
like...tp? further, the shim is simply disentangled for pulley lube
AND provides an expletive dleted blowup on the shim website in case
roght?
but with that frame(and you linseeded or rusto-ed the
innernerds?)getta extra cog from harris-brown cyclery with spacer and
up to an 8!
i have an extra index shifter-ridden once by an old woman in palm
beach-send $$ and a small box.

They our burden not?

[Peter Cole]

Post by big Pete
Hi all
I have a 86 bianchi strada lx 62 cm steel lugged frame. I really like
this bike. Would it be worth while to upgrade the components on it. It
has the original suntour group on it. This group has the friction index
shifters if that helps. How would I go about upgrading this. I was
thinking low level shimano would fit my budget. My main assumption here
is that new low level technology is better than old mid to high
technology because of technology creep (ie. the tech in the high end
get passed down to the low end as the high end gets better). Also any
info on the suntour group that I have on it now (original components)
would be helpful. What is the advantage of the old over the new? What
is the advantage of the new over the old?

A reasonable upgrade would be Shimano bar-end shifters, new rear wheel,
cassette, and rear derailer. This would cost about $200 & get you to 9-speed
with modern components. Otherwise, especially if the old rear wheel is good,
you might be better off just saving for a new bike.