Discussion:
Let's hide the bicyclists behind parked cars. What could go wrong?
(too old to reply)
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-09 17:01:19 UTC
Permalink
"Protected" bike lane hazard lawsuit:

https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
--
- Frank Krygowski
Roger Merriman
2025-01-09 19:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I’m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I’m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?

Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-09 23:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I’m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I’m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."

So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.

But of course there are people like Mike Francisco, quoted in the video
and article, for whom "Any bike facility is a good bike facility."
--
- Frank Krygowski
Wolfgang Strobl
2025-01-10 13:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Am Thu, 9 Jan 2025 18:05:50 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
But of course there are people like Mike Francisco, quoted in the video
and article, for whom "Any bike facility is a good bike facility."
This happens anywhere. Some months ago, a female cyclists was killed in
Berling/Germany by the driver of a concrete mixer

"The cyclist who was run over by a concrete mixer in Berlin-Mitte eleven
days ago is dead."

Translated from
<https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/26-jahrige-wurde-von-betonmischer-uberrollt-radfahrerin-stirbt-nach-unfall-in-berlin-mitte-im-krankenhaus-12097475.html>

"According to the police report, the woman was traveling north on
Karl-Liebknecht-Straße and wanted to cross Mollstraße straight ahead
when the truck hit her while turning right."

"At the scene of the accident, the cycle lane does not run along the
edge of the carriageway, but between the car lanes, i.e. on the
left-hand side of the right-turn lane and next to the straight-ahead
lane. This type of marking is designed precisely to prevent serious
accidents involving right-turning drivers."

This is, of course, the well known strawman argument, comparing two
"bike facilities" based on segregation, instead of contrasting both to
no segregation, which would have allowed the cyclist to position herself
on the shared lane - taking the straight ahead lane in this case, that
is.
--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions
Roger Merriman
2025-01-11 17:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I’m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I’m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
It very much was a big wide junction with bonus points of being on a hill
so cyclists will be traveling faster than drivers expect.

<https://maps.app.goo.gl/v7vuiDVNWNYNFf3TA>

So you have a hill with nice wide turns into parking lots so cars can and
will turn at speed with no attempt to slow them down? And the bikes are in
a car door gully hidden from view?

Seems to have been there for a few years but this is at best a compromise,
ie so they can keep the car parking which is part of the root of the
problem, plus having high speed turns across what is a narrow cycle lane.

Ie you get what you design for.
Post by Frank Krygowski
But of course there are people like Mike Francisco, quoted in the video
and article, for whom "Any bike facility is a good bike facility."
As suboptimal as it is I guess it’s possible that it’s better than what was
previously, google maps etc aren’t the same as being on the ground and so
on.

Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-11 18:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I’m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I’m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
It very much was a big wide junction with bonus points of being on a hill
so cyclists will be traveling faster than drivers expect.
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/v7vuiDVNWNYNFf3TA>
Hmm. Looks to me like the width of access to the parking lot was
probably intended to deal with the oddball angled configuration of the lot.

It seems you're saying that entrances to parking lots must be
constrained to narrow widths. That's a new one! I don't remember coming
across that idea in any bike facility design manuals.

It seems another example of "You built what we were asking for, but it's
obviously deadly! You should have known better!"
--
- Frank Krygowski
Roger Merriman
2025-01-11 21:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I’m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I’m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
It very much was a big wide junction with bonus points of being on a hill
so cyclists will be traveling faster than drivers expect.
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/v7vuiDVNWNYNFf3TA>
Hmm. Looks to me like the width of access to the parking lot was
probably intended to deal with the oddball angled configuration of the lot.
It seems you're saying that entrances to parking lots must be
constrained to narrow widths. That's a new one! I don't remember coming
across that idea in any bike facility design manuals.
It seems another example of "You built what we were asking for, but it's
obviously deadly! You should have known better!"
If your going to build a segregated bike lane, junctions will be conflict
points, so the design needs to cater for that, this very much is a timid
design as it’s kept the parking hasn’t done any management of access etc,
the area kept clear of parking for access is comfortably wider than the
access to the parking lot, wide will increase speeds we by nature simple
creatures.

Segregated infrastructure can and does work but it needs its design not to
be compromised which this one is, mainly for the bare minimum of spare
given over so to keep multiple lanes and parking for cars, if the street is
mainly designed for the movement and parking of cars then that’s what
you’re going to get.

Design a street more with walking/cycling etc and the outcome changes.

Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-12 00:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I’m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I’m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
It very much was a big wide junction with bonus points of being on a hill
so cyclists will be traveling faster than drivers expect.
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/v7vuiDVNWNYNFf3TA>
Hmm. Looks to me like the width of access to the parking lot was
probably intended to deal with the oddball angled configuration of the lot.
It seems you're saying that entrances to parking lots must be
constrained to narrow widths. That's a new one! I don't remember coming
across that idea in any bike facility design manuals.
It seems another example of "You built what we were asking for, but it's
obviously deadly! You should have known better!"
If your going to build a segregated bike lane, junctions will be conflict
points, so the design needs to cater for that, this very much is a timid
design as it’s kept the parking hasn’t done any management of access etc,
the area kept clear of parking for access is comfortably wider than the
access to the parking lot, wide will increase speeds we by nature simple
creatures.
If by "kept clear" you mean "parking is not allowed near the driveway,"
that sort of thing is usually considered a safety benefit. When applied
to street intersections, I've heard it called "daylighting." The
rationale is that the cyclists should be visible for more than 30 feet
before the intersection. Supposedly it reduces collisions by un-hiding
the cyclists.
Post by Roger Merriman
Segregated infrastructure can and does work but it needs its design not to
be compromised which this one is, mainly for the bare minimum of spare
given over so to keep multiple lanes and parking for cars, if the street is
mainly designed for the movement and parking of cars then that’s what
you’re going to get.
Design a street more with walking/cycling etc and the outcome changes.
"You built what we were asking for, but it's obviously deadly! You
should have known better!"

Perhaps you need to influence the people who come up with these designs.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Roger Merriman
2025-01-12 09:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I’m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I’m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
It very much was a big wide junction with bonus points of being on a hill
so cyclists will be traveling faster than drivers expect.
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/v7vuiDVNWNYNFf3TA>
Hmm. Looks to me like the width of access to the parking lot was
probably intended to deal with the oddball angled configuration of the lot.
It seems you're saying that entrances to parking lots must be
constrained to narrow widths. That's a new one! I don't remember coming
across that idea in any bike facility design manuals.
It seems another example of "You built what we were asking for, but it's
obviously deadly! You should have known better!"
If your going to build a segregated bike lane, junctions will be conflict
points, so the design needs to cater for that, this very much is a timid
design as it’s kept the parking hasn’t done any management of access etc,
the area kept clear of parking for access is comfortably wider than the
access to the parking lot, wide will increase speeds we by nature simple
creatures.
If by "kept clear" you mean "parking is not allowed near the driveway,"
that sort of thing is usually considered a safety benefit. When applied
to street intersections, I've heard it called "daylighting." The
rationale is that the cyclists should be visible for more than 30 feet
before the intersection. Supposedly it reduces collisions by un-hiding
the cyclists.
No it’s wider even than the access meaning that vehicles will be able to
drive in, without slowing as the path they take is nice bell curve.

On such places best form seems to be to narrow the access width and maybe
have the bike lane on a raised platform so vehicles have to slow down
again.
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Segregated infrastructure can and does work but it needs its design not to
be compromised which this one is, mainly for the bare minimum of spare
given over so to keep multiple lanes and parking for cars, if the street is
mainly designed for the movement and parking of cars then that’s what
you’re going to get.
Design a street more with walking/cycling etc and the outcome changes.
"You built what we were asking for, but it's obviously deadly! You
should have known better!"
Perhaps you need to influence the people who come up with these designs.
I’m sure as ever they are aware of the problems with such design but will
be political decision regarding road space, and generally making it less
car centric.

Lot of this is hardly new stuff been used by various cities for years after
all.

Roger Merriman
cyclintom
2025-01-13 16:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
But of course there are people like Mike Francisco, quoted in the video
and article, for whom "Any bike facility is a good bike facility."
Where are cyclists "hidden from view"? A car of any sort STILL has to pass a bike to turn into a driveway of any sort in order to hit the bike.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-13 18:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
But of course there are people like Mike Francisco, quoted in the video
and article, for whom "Any bike facility is a good bike facility."
Where are cyclists "hidden from view"? A car of any sort STILL has to pass a bike to turn into a driveway of any sort in order to hit the bike.
Hiding a bike lane behind a line of parked cars absolutely makes the
cyclists much less noticeable. They are hidden from view. How is this
not obvious?
--
- Frank Krygowski
Roger Merriman
2025-01-14 11:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
If you're talking about that particular crash, it happened at a parking
lot. "A lawsuit filed in King County Superior Court claims Aviv Litov,
26, was riding on Green Lake Drive North last June when a Tesla SUV
turned into a protected bike lane to access a parking lot."
So no, not a "nice wide junction." Cyclists hidden from view are at risk
of collisions at every driveway as well as every parking lot and street
intersection.
But of course there are people like Mike Francisco, quoted in the video
and article, for whom "Any bike facility is a good bike facility."
Where are cyclists "hidden from view"? A car of any sort STILL has to
pass a bike to turn into a driveway of any sort in order to hit the bike.
Hiding a bike lane behind a line of parked cars absolutely makes the
cyclists much less noticeable. They are hidden from view. How is this
not obvious?
It is this is just I’m making the argument because Frank says otherwise!

Which to be fair he’s not the only one but it’s beyond tedious!

Roger Merriman
cyclintom
2025-01-15 17:26:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
Roger Merriman
As a cyclist you don't have automatic right-of-way and are responsible to watch for idiots.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-15 18:34:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
Roger Merriman
As a cyclist you don't have automatic right-of-way and are responsible to watch for idiots.
? I don't know what you mean by "_automatic_ right of way" but according
to typical state laws, cyclists do have a right to use the road, and
other road users must respect that.

The phrase "right of way" does not necessarily occur in state laws. It's
not present in Ohio laws, AFAIK. But detail text of laws makes it clear
that in many instances - at stop signs, before pulling out of a
driveway, etc. - vehicle operators must yield to other vehicles or other
traffic. That includes bicycles; therefore, bicyclists do have what's
colloquially called "right of way."

Pulling out directly in front of a moving bicyclists and causing him to
crash will (or should) get you a ticket.
--
- Frank Krygowski
zen cycle
2025-01-16 10:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-
king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-
altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
Roger Merriman
As a cyclist you don't have automatic right-of-way and are responsible
to watch for idiots.
? I don't know what you mean by "_automatic_ right of way" but according
to typical state laws, cyclists do have a right to use the road, and
other road users must respect that.
The phrase "right of way" does not necessarily occur in state laws. It's
not present in Ohio laws, AFAIK. But detail text of laws makes it clear
that in many instances - at stop signs, before pulling out of a
driveway, etc. - vehicle operators must yield to other vehicles or other
traffic. That includes bicycles; therefore, bicyclists do have what's
colloquially called "right of way."
Pulling out directly in front of a moving bicyclists and causing him to
crash will (or should) get you a ticket.
I think in New Hampsire cyclists are regarded as pedestrians such that
they are granted the right of way, but at least in Massachusetts:

From https://www.mass.gov/doc/english-drivers-manual/download

at a green light: A steady green circle means “go.” But first, you must
yield to other vehicles, bicycles, or pedestrians in the road.

As a motorist in the presence of bicycles:
• Do Not Cut-Off After Passing: When passing a bicycle traveling in the
same direction that is on your right, you must not return to the right
until you have safely passed the overtaken bicycle. (Chap. 89, Sec. 2)
• Do Not Make an Abrupt Turn After Passing: When passing a bicycle near
an intersection or driveway where you want to turn right, you cannot
turn unless you are at a safe distance from the bicyclist and you can
make the turn at a reasonable and proper speed. (Chap. 90, Sec 14)
• Do Not Squeeze Bicycles in a Narrow Lane: If a lane is too narrow to
pass a bicycle at a safe distance, be PATIENT until you can safely use
an adjacent lane or WAIT until it is safe to pass in the lane you share.
(Chap. 89, Sec. 2) You must stay at least four feet away when passing.
• Do Not Fail to Yield When Turning Left: When turning left at an
intersection or into an alley, private road, or driveway, you must yield
the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction,
including a bicycle, if it is in the intersection or close enough to be
an immediate hazard. (Chap. 90, Sec 14)
• Watch for Bicycles on Your Right: Bicycles can legally ride to the
right of motor vehicle traffic. The law says it is not a defense for a
motorist causing a crash with a bicycle that the bicycle was to the
right of other traffic. (Chap. 85, Sec 11B)
• Do Not Open a Door Without First Looking: Drivers and passengers can
be fined up to $100 for opening a vehicle door into an oncoming bicycle.
(Chap. 90, Sec 14) Before opening your door, you should always check
behind you to make sure that no bicyclists are approaching.
• Be aware that bicyclists can ride two bicycles side-by-side. However,
on a road with more than one lane in the direction of travel, they must
stay in one lane. (Chap. 85, Sec. 11B)
• Be aware that bicyclists Do Not Always Have to Signal Turns!
Bicyclists must signal their intent by either hand to stop or turn.
However, the signal does not have to be continuous or be made at all if
both hands are needed for the bicycle’s safe operation. (Chap. 85, Sec. 11B)

It then goes to explain yielding to cyclists in bike lanes, bike boxes,
and how not to 'door' a cyclist.
John B.
2025-01-16 11:58:16 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 05:43:56 -0500, zen cycle
Post by zen cycle
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-
king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-
altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
Roger Merriman
As a cyclist you don't have automatic right-of-way and are responsible
to watch for idiots.
? I don't know what you mean by "_automatic_ right of way" but according
to typical state laws, cyclists do have a right to use the road, and
other road users must respect that.
The phrase "right of way" does not necessarily occur in state laws. It's
not present in Ohio laws, AFAIK. But detail text of laws makes it clear
that in many instances - at stop signs, before pulling out of a
driveway, etc. - vehicle operators must yield to other vehicles or other
traffic. That includes bicycles; therefore, bicyclists do have what's
colloquially called "right of way."
Pulling out directly in front of a moving bicyclists and causing him to
crash will (or should) get you a ticket.
I think in New Hampsire cyclists are regarded as pedestrians such that
https://www.dot.nh.gov/projects-plans-and-programs/programs/bikes-and-pedestrians/rules-traffic-safety
Bicyclists have the same rights and responsibilities as motorists.
Bicycles are vehicles (RSA 265:143).
Post by zen cycle
From https://www.mass.gov/doc/english-drivers-manual/download
at a green light: A steady green circle means “go.” But first, you must
yield to other vehicles, bicycles, or pedestrians in the road.
• Do Not Cut-Off After Passing: When passing a bicycle traveling in the
same direction that is on your right, you must not return to the right
until you have safely passed the overtaken bicycle. (Chap. 89, Sec. 2)
• Do Not Make an Abrupt Turn After Passing: When passing a bicycle near
an intersection or driveway where you want to turn right, you cannot
turn unless you are at a safe distance from the bicyclist and you can
make the turn at a reasonable and proper speed. (Chap. 90, Sec 14)
• Do Not Squeeze Bicycles in a Narrow Lane: If a lane is too narrow to
pass a bicycle at a safe distance, be PATIENT until you can safely use
an adjacent lane or WAIT until it is safe to pass in the lane you share.
(Chap. 89, Sec. 2) You must stay at least four feet away when passing.
• Do Not Fail to Yield When Turning Left: When turning left at an
intersection or into an alley, private road, or driveway, you must yield
the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction,
including a bicycle, if it is in the intersection or close enough to be
an immediate hazard. (Chap. 90, Sec 14)
• Watch for Bicycles on Your Right: Bicycles can legally ride to the
right of motor vehicle traffic. The law says it is not a defense for a
motorist causing a crash with a bicycle that the bicycle was to the
right of other traffic. (Chap. 85, Sec 11B)
• Do Not Open a Door Without First Looking: Drivers and passengers can
be fined up to $100 for opening a vehicle door into an oncoming bicycle.
(Chap. 90, Sec 14) Before opening your door, you should always check
behind you to make sure that no bicyclists are approaching.
• Be aware that bicyclists can ride two bicycles side-by-side. However,
on a road with more than one lane in the direction of travel, they must
stay in one lane. (Chap. 85, Sec. 11B)
• Be aware that bicyclists Do Not Always Have to Signal Turns!
Bicyclists must signal their intent by either hand to stop or turn.
However, the signal does not have to be continuous or be made at all if
both hands are needed for the bicycle’s safe operation. (Chap. 85, Sec. 11B)
It then goes to explain yielding to cyclists in bike lanes, bike boxes,
and how not to 'door' a cyclist.
--
Cheers,

John B.
zen cycle
2025-01-16 12:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 05:43:56 -0500, zen cycle
Post by zen cycle
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-
king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-
altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
Roger Merriman
As a cyclist you don't have automatic right-of-way and are responsible
to watch for idiots.
? I don't know what you mean by "_automatic_ right of way" but according
to typical state laws, cyclists do have a right to use the road, and
other road users must respect that.
The phrase "right of way" does not necessarily occur in state laws. It's
not present in Ohio laws, AFAIK. But detail text of laws makes it clear
that in many instances - at stop signs, before pulling out of a
driveway, etc. - vehicle operators must yield to other vehicles or other
traffic. That includes bicycles; therefore, bicyclists do have what's
colloquially called "right of way."
Pulling out directly in front of a moving bicyclists and causing him to
crash will (or should) get you a ticket.
I think in New Hampsire cyclists are regarded as pedestrians such that
https://www.dot.nh.gov/projects-plans-and-programs/programs/bikes-and-pedestrians/rules-traffic-safety
Bicyclists have the same rights and responsibilities as motorists.
Bicycles are vehicles (RSA 265:143).
Thanks, I was too lazy to look up the link, but there's quite a bit more
to it that that. Your link points to this:

https://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXI/265/265-143-a.htm
" Every driver of a vehicle, when approaching a bicyclist, shall insure
the safety and protection of the bicyclist and shall exercise due care
by leaving a reasonable and prudent distance between the vehicle and the
bicycle. The distance shall be presumed to be reasonable and prudent if
it is at least 3 feet when the vehicle is traveling at 30 miles per hour
or less, with one additional foot of clearance required for every 10
miles per hour above 30 miles per hour. "

IOW - the responsibility for the safety of the cyclist lies with the
driver of the motor vehicle.


Oh, BTW, your link also contains this little nugget:
"Take the full lane when your safety depends on it....There are many
common operational situations where cyclists must control the lane,
including:
- When overtaking and passing another bicycle or any other vehicle
proceeding in the same direction.
- When preparing for or making a left turn at an intersection or into a
driveway.
- When proceeding straight in a place where right turns are permitted.
- When necessary to avoid hazardous conditions, including, but not
limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians,
animals, broken pavement, glass, sand, puddles, ice, or opening doors of
parked vehicles."

So, you can use whatever verbiage you like...'seize', 'take',
'control'....it's a common method for safe cycling, and yes, if you do
it wrong, you can get yourself killed.
Post by John B.
Post by zen cycle
From https://www.mass.gov/doc/english-drivers-manual/download
at a green light: A steady green circle means “go.” But first, you must
yield to other vehicles, bicycles, or pedestrians in the road.
• Do Not Cut-Off After Passing: When passing a bicycle traveling in the
same direction that is on your right, you must not return to the right
until you have safely passed the overtaken bicycle. (Chap. 89, Sec. 2)
• Do Not Make an Abrupt Turn After Passing: When passing a bicycle near
an intersection or driveway where you want to turn right, you cannot
turn unless you are at a safe distance from the bicyclist and you can
make the turn at a reasonable and proper speed. (Chap. 90, Sec 14)
• Do Not Squeeze Bicycles in a Narrow Lane: If a lane is too narrow to
pass a bicycle at a safe distance, be PATIENT until you can safely use
an adjacent lane or WAIT until it is safe to pass in the lane you share.
(Chap. 89, Sec. 2) You must stay at least four feet away when passing.
• Do Not Fail to Yield When Turning Left: When turning left at an
intersection or into an alley, private road, or driveway, you must yield
the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction,
including a bicycle, if it is in the intersection or close enough to be
an immediate hazard. (Chap. 90, Sec 14)
• Watch for Bicycles on Your Right: Bicycles can legally ride to the
right of motor vehicle traffic. The law says it is not a defense for a
motorist causing a crash with a bicycle that the bicycle was to the
right of other traffic. (Chap. 85, Sec 11B)
• Do Not Open a Door Without First Looking: Drivers and passengers can
be fined up to $100 for opening a vehicle door into an oncoming bicycle.
(Chap. 90, Sec 14) Before opening your door, you should always check
behind you to make sure that no bicyclists are approaching.
• Be aware that bicyclists can ride two bicycles side-by-side. However,
on a road with more than one lane in the direction of travel, they must
stay in one lane. (Chap. 85, Sec. 11B)
• Be aware that bicyclists Do Not Always Have to Signal Turns!
Bicyclists must signal their intent by either hand to stop or turn.
However, the signal does not have to be continuous or be made at all if
both hands are needed for the bicycle’s safe operation. (Chap. 85, Sec. 11B)
It then goes to explain yielding to cyclists in bike lanes, bike boxes,
and how not to 'door' a cyclist.
Roger Merriman
2025-01-16 09:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
I?m unconvinced by such designs seems asking for trouble and and attempting
to please everyone ie compromise the cycleway for car parking, I?m guessing
nice wide junction with no attempt to slow cars down let alone control it?
Roger Merriman
As a cyclist you don't have automatic right-of-way and are responsible to watch for idiots.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive certainly in uk bikes as with other forms
of transport do have the right of way, clearly the being dead right comes
into play as well.

But a junction or crossing that has restricted visibility with a nice wide
access so motorists don’t need to slow down is rather asking for trouble.

Roger Merriman
Tom Kunich
2025-01-10 19:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla

But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-10 20:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.

My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.

What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
--
- Frank Krygowski
cyclintom
2025-01-10 20:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
My answer is to use a rear view mirror and keep track of what is behind me and try to take whatever action is necessary to stay out of the way of speeding traffic. Your claim to take the lane anywhere and everywhere is bullshit. Either you ride only on quiet back streets or you're lying.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-10 23:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
My answer is to use a rear view mirror and keep track of what is behind me and try to take whatever action is necessary to stay out of the way of speeding traffic.
Again, I originally specified a road with no shoulder. That's upthread.

So "whatever action is necessary" seems like stopping the bike and
getting off the road to let your superior (the truck driver) pass. No?
If not, then what does it mean?

In other words, why not answer the question?
Post by cyclintom
Your claim to take the lane anywhere and everywhere is bullshit. Either you ride only on quiet back streets or you're lying.
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.

I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
--
- Frank Krygowski
cyclintom
2025-01-11 20:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
My answer is to use a rear view mirror and keep track of what is behind me and try to take whatever action is necessary to stay out of the way of speeding traffic.
Again, I originally specified a road with no shoulder. That's upthread.
So "whatever action is necessary" seems like stopping the bike and
getting off the road to let your superior (the truck driver) pass. No?
If not, then what does it mean?
In other words, why not answer the question?
Post by cyclintom
Your claim to take the lane anywhere and everywhere is bullshit. Either you ride only on quiet back streets or you're lying.
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-12 00:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.

I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.

I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
--
- Frank Krygowski
John B.
2025-01-12 10:41:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.

Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/seizing
Meaning of seizing in English
seizing - to take something quickly and keep or hold it:
--
Cheers,

John B.
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-12 12:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/seizing
Meaning of seizing in English
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate, coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous, I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway. More
likely, his lane seizing occurs on suburban 25 MPH streets and low
traffic rural roads, pretty much like I used to do and occasionally
still do.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-12 19:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
those interested:

I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.

Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.

It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.

But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.

Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.

Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.

And so, what would _you_ have done?

Granted, the guy who rides only a tricycle would never be out there,
because it's not a flat Florida rail trail paid for by a socialistic
government wasting tax dollars on playthings for the timid.

But I keep asking people like John and Tom: What do you do? Or what have
you done?

I imagine they either never, ever bicycled on such a road, or they
jumped off their bikes and humbly bowed to their superiors.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-12 19:51:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:10:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
I recall your imaginary Ruger engineer who told you all about how he
designed guns..
Post by Frank Krygowski
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
You even provided a video to demonstrate how dangerous it is...
Post by Frank Krygowski
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
You're right I don't believe it.
Post by Frank Krygowski
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
in your imagination, anyway...
Post by Frank Krygowski
And so, what would _you_ have done?
Granted, the guy who rides only a tricycle would never be out there,
because it's not a flat Florida rail trail paid for by a socialistic
<LOL> socialistic???
Post by Frank Krygowski
government wasting tax dollars on playthings for the timid.
I have plenty of bicycle miles on roads and highways in Wisconsin..
Post by Frank Krygowski
But I keep asking people like John and Tom: What do you do? Or what have
you done?
I imagine they either never, ever bicycled on such a road, or they
jumped off their bikes and humbly bowed to their superiors.
--
C'est bon
Soloman
Roger Merriman
2025-01-12 21:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out
while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.

And UK is certainly quite a car centric place though less so than the US at
least with regulations ie no jaywalking or mandatory bike lanes and so on.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And so, what would _you_ have done?
Granted, the guy who rides only a tricycle would never be out there,
because it's not a flat Florida rail trail paid for by a socialistic
government wasting tax dollars on playthings for the timid.
But I keep asking people like John and Tom: What do you do? Or what have
you done?
I imagine they either never, ever bicycled on such a road, or they
jumped off their bikes and humbly bowed to their superiors.
Roger Merriman
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-12 23:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out
while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
And UK is certainly quite a car centric place though less so than the US at
least with regulations ie no jaywalking or mandatory bike lanes and so on.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And so, what would _you_ have done?
Granted, the guy who rides only a tricycle would never be out there,
because it's not a flat Florida rail trail paid for by a socialistic
government wasting tax dollars on playthings for the timid.
But I keep asking people like John and Tom: What do you do? Or what have
you done?
I imagine they either never, ever bicycled on such a road, or they
jumped off their bikes and humbly bowed to their superiors.
Roger Merriman
I've spent many hours on crowded fast moving highways and although I
generally drive fast enough to not have this happen to me, I've seen
plenty of occasions where a slow moving vehicle has been harassed by
someone in a hurry. An 18 wheel truck driver who patiently follows an
18 MPH bicyclist on a 60/70 MPH highway would be an unusual
circumstance. Even driving at 70/80 MPH as I often do, I've had them
come up so close that all I can see in my mirror is their big chrome
bumper.

...and no, I definitely do not for a moment, believe Krygowski's
highly imaginative anecdote.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-13 02:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Merriman
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.

We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Roger Merriman
2025-01-13 05:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.

Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-13 16:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.

So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.

Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.

But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-13 17:24:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:46:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.
So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.
Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.
<LOL> Sure you did.....
Post by Frank Krygowski
But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
Krygowski can make up a story for every occasion.

With a narcissist it comes down to this:

Every conversation,
every situation,
every interaction,
every moment,
is all about him

--
C'est bon
Soloman
John B.
2025-01-14 02:01:36 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:24:29 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:46:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.
So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.
Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.
<LOL> Sure you did.....
Post by Frank Krygowski
But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
Krygowski can make up a story for every occasion.
Every conversation,
every situation,
every interaction,
every moment,
is all about him
There are people that have fallen or jumped out of an airplane at high
altitudes. The record seems to be "Vesna Vulovic", a Serbian flight
attendant who survived the highest fall without a parachute: 10.16
kilometres (6.31 miles) or 33,338 feet.

However, unlike Frankie, I'd be a bit reluctant to recommend it for a
daily practice.
--
Cheers,

John B.
AMuzi
2025-01-14 03:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:24:29 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:46:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.
So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.
Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.
<LOL> Sure you did.....
Post by Frank Krygowski
But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
Krygowski can make up a story for every occasion.
Every conversation,
every situation,
every interaction,
every moment,
is all about him
There are people that have fallen or jumped out of an airplane at high
altitudes. The record seems to be "Vesna Vulovic", a Serbian flight
attendant who survived the highest fall without a parachute: 10.16
kilometres (6.31 miles) or 33,338 feet.
However, unlike Frankie, I'd be a bit reluctant to recommend it for a
daily practice.
Thank you I just read her story. Fascinating.
--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 10:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:24:29 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:46:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.
So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.
Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.
<LOL> Sure you did.....
Post by Frank Krygowski
But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
Krygowski can make up a story for every occasion.
Every conversation,
every situation,
every interaction,
every moment,
is all about him
There are people that have fallen or jumped out of an airplane at high
altitudes. The record seems to be "Vesna Vulovic", a Serbian flight
attendant who survived the highest fall without a parachute: 10.16
kilometres (6.31 miles) or 33,338 feet.
However, unlike Frankie, I'd be a bit reluctant to recommend it for a
daily practice.
In addition to writing fiction, I read a lot of fiction. I have a list
of authors that I like, and another list of authors that I cannot
tolerate. One of the things I cannot tolerate is when a story defies
logic. Another is when the writer goes on and on with unessential
information, believing apparently, that readers will be more likely to
buy onto it if they know what kind of bicycle the guy rode, when, why,
and where he began his ride and that reporters showed up to see him
off. It's a sure sign that the writer is telling a contrived story
rather than relating an event, and of course, a good book is more like
relating events rather than like telling stories.

Krygowski is a teller of illogical stories, and he doesn't just tell
fantasy stories, he lives in his fantasy stories. He's also, in my
opinion, not a very good writer.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
John B.
2025-01-14 12:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 05:58:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:24:29 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:46:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.
So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.
Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.
<LOL> Sure you did.....
Post by Frank Krygowski
But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
Krygowski can make up a story for every occasion.
Every conversation,
every situation,
every interaction,
every moment,
is all about him
There are people that have fallen or jumped out of an airplane at high
altitudes. The record seems to be "Vesna Vulovic", a Serbian flight
attendant who survived the highest fall without a parachute: 10.16
kilometres (6.31 miles) or 33,338 feet.
However, unlike Frankie, I'd be a bit reluctant to recommend it for a
daily practice.
In addition to writing fiction, I read a lot of fiction. I have a list
of authors that I like, and another list of authors that I cannot
tolerate. One of the things I cannot tolerate is when a story defies
logic. Another is when the writer goes on and on with unessential
information, believing apparently, that readers will be more likely to
buy onto it if they know what kind of bicycle the guy rode, when, why,
and where he began his ride and that reporters showed up to see him
off. It's a sure sign that the writer is telling a contrived story
rather than relating an event, and of course, a good book is more like
relating events rather than like telling stories.
Krygowski is a teller of illogical stories, and he doesn't just tell
fantasy stories, he lives in his fantasy stories. He's also, in my
opinion, not a very good writer.
I've read "Moby Dick" several times. Not because I think it is a great
book but because it gives considerable detailed accounts about the
whaling industry of the 1800's.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 13:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 05:58:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:24:29 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:46:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.
So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.
Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.
<LOL> Sure you did.....
Post by Frank Krygowski
But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
Krygowski can make up a story for every occasion.
Every conversation,
every situation,
every interaction,
every moment,
is all about him
There are people that have fallen or jumped out of an airplane at high
altitudes. The record seems to be "Vesna Vulovic", a Serbian flight
attendant who survived the highest fall without a parachute: 10.16
kilometres (6.31 miles) or 33,338 feet.
However, unlike Frankie, I'd be a bit reluctant to recommend it for a
daily practice.
In addition to writing fiction, I read a lot of fiction. I have a list
of authors that I like, and another list of authors that I cannot
tolerate. One of the things I cannot tolerate is when a story defies
logic. Another is when the writer goes on and on with unessential
information, believing apparently, that readers will be more likely to
buy onto it if they know what kind of bicycle the guy rode, when, why,
and where he began his ride and that reporters showed up to see him
off. It's a sure sign that the writer is telling a contrived story
rather than relating an event, and of course, a good book is more like
relating events rather than like telling stories.
Krygowski is a teller of illogical stories, and he doesn't just tell
fantasy stories, he lives in his fantasy stories. He's also, in my
opinion, not a very good writer.
I've read "Moby Dick" several times. Not because I think it is a great
book but because it gives considerable detailed accounts about the
whaling industry of the 1800's.
A book can be educational even if it's boring and tedious, as is how I
found "Moby Dick" to be. It requires, of course, first, that the
reader is interested in the details the book puts forth, and that the
writer apply, as in "fit in" the details to the story.

The details of the story I referenced above were mostly about the
writer's involvement in the situation, whereas the issue of the guy
riding on the road, which I'm sure was the writer's reason for writing
the story, was almost a sidelight.

It takes an exceptionally talented writer to write a quality first
person book. I tend to shy away from them, especially if the
writer/character doesn't freely address his faults and failings,
doubts and difficulties. We all have them. True exceptionality exists
only in a person's fantasy life.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
AMuzi
2025-01-14 14:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 05:58:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:24:29 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:46:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Roger Merriman
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
No I suspect I’m relatively low % of folks who have looked at it, but in
general it’s the advice other cyclists give and even non cyclists seem to
mostly do it, ie cultural for want of better word.
I mentioned this here maybe 5 years ago, but: One local guy who was
pretty well known from his participation in some civic organizations
lost his wife. He was just a path rider, but he decided to deal with his
loss by bicycling down to visit his daughter in Florida. Someone told
him to ask me for advice.
So he visited and we talked. He rode a very upright "comfort bike." I
think my main piece of advice was that his path riding wasn't sufficient
training, and that he should be doing some hills, because he couldn't
reach Florida without climbing serious hills. I'm sure I said something
about our rights to the road, about taking the lane, etc. but it wasn't
the biggest part of our conversation.
Anyway, I decided to show up for his official departure from a local
shopping plaza and ride a bit with him. I was shocked to see that his
supporters had called in a TV crew. I greeted him, but did my best to
stay out of the picture.
<LOL> Sure you did.....
Post by Frank Krygowski
But we did ride off together, on the busy four lane highway I sometimes
mention here - one that many bike club members would refuse to ride. He
planted himself firmly in the middle of the right lane and sailed on
with a smile on his face. As usual, motorists handled it perfectly with
no aggression, no complaints. We rode together for maybe 10 or 15 miles,
long after the road became a two lane with 55 mph speed limits. Then I
turned back for home, and he rode on to Florida. He made the trip in
fine shape.
Krygowski can make up a story for every occasion.
Every conversation,
every situation,
every interaction,
every moment,
is all about him
There are people that have fallen or jumped out of an airplane at high
altitudes. The record seems to be "Vesna Vulovic", a Serbian flight
attendant who survived the highest fall without a parachute: 10.16
kilometres (6.31 miles) or 33,338 feet.
However, unlike Frankie, I'd be a bit reluctant to recommend it for a
daily practice.
In addition to writing fiction, I read a lot of fiction. I have a list
of authors that I like, and another list of authors that I cannot
tolerate. One of the things I cannot tolerate is when a story defies
logic. Another is when the writer goes on and on with unessential
information, believing apparently, that readers will be more likely to
buy onto it if they know what kind of bicycle the guy rode, when, why,
and where he began his ride and that reporters showed up to see him
off. It's a sure sign that the writer is telling a contrived story
rather than relating an event, and of course, a good book is more like
relating events rather than like telling stories.
Krygowski is a teller of illogical stories, and he doesn't just tell
fantasy stories, he lives in his fantasy stories. He's also, in my
opinion, not a very good writer.
I've read "Moby Dick" several times. Not because I think it is a great
book but because it gives considerable detailed accounts about the
whaling industry of the 1800's.
Yes, and he did it well.
Authors trying to emulate that style, as Mr Tricycle notes,
fail more often than not.
--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-14 17:07:14 UTC
Permalink
He's also, in my opinion, not a very good writer.
There are always plenty of personal opinions. I give no credence to the
opinion of a man who can't tell fiction from fact.

Care to give us sales figures for your self-published paperbacks? The
ones that no publisher would adopt, and which are now out of print?
--
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
2025-01-14 17:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
He's also, in my opinion, not a very good writer.
There are always plenty of personal opinions. I give no
credence to the opinion of a man who can't tell fiction from
fact.
Care to give us sales figures for your self-published
paperbacks? The ones that no publisher would adopt, and
which are now out of print?
Irrelevant.

People who write as a pastime or hobby and seek a vanity
publisher, or more practically a book printer, are numerous
and growing. It's a legitimate thing to do, even though it
is not the same as writing under contract after a proposal
to an actual publisher.

One might reflect on that in relation to the huge number of
academic and scientific papers which almost no one will ever
read and sustain a zombielike existence only because friends
and fellows cite it as a favor.
--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 19:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
He's also, in my opinion, not a very good writer.
There are always plenty of personal opinions. I give no
credence to the opinion of a man who can't tell fiction from
fact.
Care to give us sales figures for your self-published
paperbacks? The ones that no publisher would adopt, and
which are now out of print?
Irrelevant.
People who write as a pastime or hobby and seek a vanity
publisher, or more practically a book printer, are numerous
and growing. It's a legitimate thing to do, even though it
is not the same as writing under contract after a proposal
to an actual publisher.
One might reflect on that in relation to the huge number of
academic and scientific papers which almost no one will ever
read and sustain a zombielike existence only because friends
and fellows cite it as a favor.
It doesn't require any qualifications to review someone's writing, or
wine, violins, or bicycles, for that matter.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-14 19:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
He's also, in my opinion, not a very good writer.
There are always plenty of personal opinions. I give no credence to
the opinion of a man who can't tell fiction from fact.
Care to give us sales figures for your self-published paperbacks? The
ones that no publisher would adopt, and which are now out of print?
Irrelevant.
People who write as a pastime or hobby and seek a vanity publisher, or
more practically a book printer, are numerous and growing. It's a
legitimate thing to do, even though it is not the same as writing under
contract after a proposal to an actual publisher.
It's a hobby, in the same way as hundreds of other hobbies: sculpture,
poetry, whatever. But a sculptor whose work is never shown, a poet whose
work is never published by a respected press has no evidence of competence.

And if a sculptor or amateur poet says "That guy's work is no good,"
it's reasonable to ask what standard he is using. If the critic is a guy
with ugly sculptures or terrible poems, his opinion has no value.

Our tricycle rider is a guy who's tried and failed to sell novels. His
work did not meet the standard he set himself. Yet he's complaining
about another's writing.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 20:20:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 14:54:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
He's also, in my opinion, not a very good writer.
There are always plenty of personal opinions. I give no credence to
the opinion of a man who can't tell fiction from fact.
Care to give us sales figures for your self-published paperbacks? The
ones that no publisher would adopt, and which are now out of print?
Irrelevant.
People who write as a pastime or hobby and seek a vanity publisher, or
more practically a book printer, are numerous and growing. It's a
legitimate thing to do, even though it is not the same as writing under
contract after a proposal to an actual publisher.
It's a hobby, in the same way as hundreds of other hobbies: sculpture,
poetry, whatever. But a sculptor whose work is never shown, a poet whose
work is never published by a respected press has no evidence of competence.
Failure to sell something may only reflect incompetence at marketing,
or perhaps, a lack of marketing. Many famous works of art never sold
until long after the artist was dead and buried.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And if a sculptor or amateur poet says "That guy's work is no good,"
it's reasonable to ask what standard he is using. If the critic is a guy
with ugly sculptures or terrible poems, his opinion has no value.
...and yet, here you are complaining about my opinion.
Post by Frank Krygowski
Our tricycle rider is a guy who's tried and failed to sell novels. His
work did not meet the standard he set himself. Yet he's complaining
about another's writing.
I didn't complain. I just rendered a judgment.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
John B.
2025-01-15 03:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
He's also, in my opinion, not a very good writer.
There are always plenty of personal opinions. I give no
credence to the opinion of a man who can't tell fiction from
fact.
Care to give us sales figures for your self-published
paperbacks? The ones that no publisher would adopt, and
which are now out of print?
Irrelevant.
People who write as a pastime or hobby and seek a vanity
publisher, or more practically a book printer, are numerous
and growing. It's a legitimate thing to do, even though it
is not the same as writing under contract after a proposal
to an actual publisher.
One might reflect on that in relation to the huge number of
academic and scientific papers which almost no one will ever
read and sustain a zombielike existence only because friends
and fellows cite it as a favor.
I used to do a lot of photography and one bid we were making for a
project out in the jungle I added a paragraph or two with a couple of
photos. We won the bid and in the first post bid meeting the client
mentioned that "Hey those photos made it really simple to visualize
the work that had to be done".

The boss gave me a bonus :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 19:24:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 12:07:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
He's also, in my opinion, not a very good writer.
There are always plenty of personal opinions. I give no credence to the
opinion of a man who can't tell fiction from fact.
I didn't expect you to give credence. I just stated my opinion. Take
it or leave it.
Post by Frank Krygowski
Care to give us sales figures for your self-published paperbacks? The
ones that no publisher would adopt, and which are now out of print?
Why would I care to do that?.. and who is "us," you and your
imaginary friend, Fred, that you bragged to?

--
C'est bon
Soloman
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-13 08:30:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 21:37:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
Well, like me, you've bothered to look into the actual legal aspects and
the advice given by legitimate cycling education programs.
We have several people here who have not bothered to do that minimal
research, because they already "know" everything.
Most people know enough to stay clear of the scams and fear-mongering
by (eyeroll) "legitimate cycling education programs," although I know
there are fools who enjoy gathering together to practice their group
thinking."

--
C'est bon
Soloman
John B.
2025-01-13 04:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out
while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?

I don't think I'd care to visit your country :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.
Roger Merriman
2025-01-13 05:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out
while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without
including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?
That’s not that fast, even get some 50mph roads in cities though most have
reduced speed limits, and out of town be 60/70mph limits so 100+kmh and
those generally are roads that riding in the middle of the lane are wise,
absolutely move in to let others pass and so on, but give your self space.
Post by John B.
I don't think I'd care to visit your country :-)
It’s by some degree safer on the roads than Thailand!

Roger Merriman
John B.
2025-01-13 06:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out
while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without
including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
I?m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It?s even in the uk
Highway Code I?m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?
That’s not that fast, even get some 50mph roads in cities though most have
reduced speed limits, and out of town be 60/70mph limits so 100+kmh and
those generally are roads that riding in the middle of the lane are wise,
absolutely move in to let others pass and so on, but give your self space.
Post by John B.
I don't think I'd care to visit your country :-)
It’s by some degree safer on the roads than Thailand!
Roger Merriman
:-0 That isn't exactly correct. More then half of the "accidents"
are small motorcycles which are lithely everywhere,, on sidewalks,
down wrong way streets, etc. The police have frequent "drives" to
catch them and things calm down for week or so and then back to
normal. My Housekeeper, for example, has a motorcycle, her husband
has a motorcycle, her oldest daughter has a motorcycle... I asked her
about drivers licenses,,,, "A what"?
--
Cheers,

John B.
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-13 08:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out
while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?
I don't think I'd care to visit your country :-)
I suppose it might be legal under certain conditions, but would anyone
be foolish enough to do it?

Only a total fool (or a liar) would claim to bicycle on a two lane
high speed traffic of big trucks in heavy enough rain where water on
the road obscured potholes and visibility of both the cyclists and the
traffic was hindered. I also doubt that any bicyclists would be doing
18 MPH in those conditions on a road in poor condition, although a
truck doing 60 MPH wouldn't be unusual.

Krygowski's imaginative story defies logic.

..and I seem to remember him complaining about other people posting
their personal anecdotes.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-13 16:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
Post by Roger Merriman
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?
The fearful skeptics here are, first, ignoring the traffic laws. Those
laws absolutely allow what Roger claims. And second, the fearful
skeptics are imagining Worst Case Scenarios to justify their paranoia.

"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.

And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.

The guy who rides only a tricycle only on a bike path can stop reading
now, but: I remember one solo bike tour probably 20 years ago. I wanted
to spend the night camping in a state park I'd never seen in
Pennsylvania. Navigating by paper maps, I got myself into the situation
that strikes terror into some hearts here: With no warning, the highway
I was riding turned into four narrow lanes with rush hour traffic and a
wall at my right. There was literally nowhere to go.

Yes, it was unpleasant. Yes, motorists behind me were angry. But I did
the only thing I could do: I rode in the center of the right lane until
I could exit. I suffered no attacks, no crashes, no damage.

What would you have done?
--
- Frank Krygowski
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-13 17:20:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?
The fearful skeptics here are, first, ignoring the traffic laws. Those
laws absolutely allow what Roger claims. And second, the fearful
skeptics are imagining Worst Case Scenarios to justify their paranoia.
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
The guy who rides only a tricycle only on a bike path can stop reading
now, but: I remember one solo bike tour probably 20 years ago. I wanted
to spend the night camping in a state park I'd never seen in
Pennsylvania. Navigating by paper maps, I got myself into the situation
that strikes terror into some hearts here: With no warning, the highway
I was riding turned into four narrow lanes with rush hour traffic and a
wall at my right. There was literally nowhere to go.
Yes, it was unpleasant. Yes, motorists behind me were angry. But I did
the only thing I could do: I rode in the center of the right lane until
I could exit. I suffered no attacks, no crashes, no damage.
What would you have done?
As for me, I don't write science fiction, so wouldn't write a story
where rush hour traffic suddenly came out of nowhere with no warning,
but you could have added another driving rainstorm to the story like
in your earlier fantasy, or no, maybe a snowstorm and ice covered
roads, this time.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
John B.
2025-01-14 02:51:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:20:33 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?
The fearful skeptics here are, first, ignoring the traffic laws. Those
laws absolutely allow what Roger claims. And second, the fearful
skeptics are imagining Worst Case Scenarios to justify their paranoia.
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
The guy who rides only a tricycle only on a bike path can stop reading
now, but: I remember one solo bike tour probably 20 years ago. I wanted
to spend the night camping in a state park I'd never seen in
Pennsylvania. Navigating by paper maps, I got myself into the situation
that strikes terror into some hearts here: With no warning, the highway
I was riding turned into four narrow lanes with rush hour traffic and a
wall at my right. There was literally nowhere to go.
Yes, it was unpleasant. Yes, motorists behind me were angry. But I did
the only thing I could do: I rode in the center of the right lane until
I could exit. I suffered no attacks, no crashes, no damage.
What would you have done?
As for me, I don't write science fiction, so wouldn't write a story
where rush hour traffic suddenly came out of nowhere with no warning,
but you could have added another driving rainstorm to the story like
in your earlier fantasy, or no, maybe a snowstorm and ice covered
roads, this time.
Here (and I do recognize that it is not the U.S.) the laws forbid
anyone to impeding traffic - a 1,000 baht fine - (think 16 days
minimum salary) for first offense.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-14 16:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 12:20:33 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
Post by Roger Merriman
I’m bit baffled personally that this is an issue? It’s even in the uk
Highway Code I’m not aware of it being changed ie the advice has always
been to ride in the center of the lane, moving left to allow other vehicles
to pass if safe to do so.
You mean in traffic traveling as much as 90 kmh the bicycle traveling,
an average speed of 3o kmh should travel in the middle of the lane?
The fearful skeptics here are, first, ignoring the traffic laws. Those
laws absolutely allow what Roger claims. And second, the fearful
skeptics are imagining Worst Case Scenarios to justify their paranoia.
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
The guy who rides only a tricycle only on a bike path can stop reading
now, but: I remember one solo bike tour probably 20 years ago. I wanted
to spend the night camping in a state park I'd never seen in
Pennsylvania. Navigating by paper maps, I got myself into the situation
that strikes terror into some hearts here: With no warning, the highway
I was riding turned into four narrow lanes with rush hour traffic and a
wall at my right. There was literally nowhere to go.
Yes, it was unpleasant. Yes, motorists behind me were angry. But I did
the only thing I could do: I rode in the center of the right lane until
I could exit. I suffered no attacks, no crashes, no damage.
What would you have done?
As for me, I don't write science fiction, so wouldn't write a story
where rush hour traffic suddenly came out of nowhere with no warning,
but you could have added another driving rainstorm to the story like
in your earlier fantasy, or no, maybe a snowstorm and ice covered
roads, this time.
Here (and I do recognize that it is not the U.S.) the laws forbid
anyone to impeding traffic - a 1,000 baht fine - (think 16 days
minimum salary) for first offense.
Correct, you're not in the U.S. I've discussed U.S. laws and legal
decisions and precedents many times. Cyclists have full rights to the
road. The legal situation is very clear.

https://ohiobikelawyer.com/bike-law-101/2010/09/the-selz-case-revisited/
--
- Frank Krygowski
Wolfgang Strobl
2025-01-13 17:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
Exactly. An quite a lot of roads with no limit (meaning limited to 100
km/h outside of highways) are wide enough or have little traffic, so
that overtaking slower vehicles is not much of a problem. I a driver is
able to overtake another that only drives at 80 km/h, he or she is
certailny able to overtake a cyclist doing 30 km/h only. Most probably,
the latter is much easier to do, for obvious reasons.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
Time to show this short video again
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20210710/L113.mp4>
We have used that road quite often, because it is the best connection to
get out of the larger Rhine valley and into the low mountain range
called "Eifel". Narrower roads, especially those with a sidepath are
both more unpleasant and more risky. Motorists can sniff "bicycle
infrastructure" even when there isn't any. Any rotten footpath is good
enough. :-(
--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-13 17:41:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 18:27:09 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
Exactly. An quite a lot of roads with no limit (meaning limited to 100
km/h outside of highways) are wide enough or have little traffic, so
that overtaking slower vehicles is not much of a problem. I a driver is
able to overtake another that only drives at 80 km/h, he or she is
certailny able to overtake a cyclist doing 30 km/h only. Most probably,
the latter is much easier to do, for obvious reasons.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
Time to show this short video again
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20210710/L113.mp4>
We have used that road quite often, because it is the best connection to
get out of the larger Rhine valley and into the low mountain range
called "Eifel". Narrower roads, especially those with a sidepath are
both more unpleasant and more risky. Motorists can sniff "bicycle
infrastructure" even when there isn't any. Any rotten footpath is good
enough. :-(
Looks like a nice ride. A little like the country roads where I use to
ride in Wisconsin, but much flatter. The flatness is like where I ride
here in Florida. I ride mostly bike trails here, but occasionally on
country roads like your video.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
John B.
2025-01-14 03:02:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 18:27:09 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
Exactly. An quite a lot of roads with no limit (meaning limited to 100
km/h outside of highways) are wide enough or have little traffic, so
that overtaking slower vehicles is not much of a problem. I a driver is
able to overtake another that only drives at 80 km/h, he or she is
certailny able to overtake a cyclist doing 30 km/h only. Most probably,
the latter is much easier to do, for obvious reasons.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
Time to show this short video again
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20210710/L113.mp4>
We have used that road quite often, because it is the best connection to
get out of the larger Rhine valley and into the low mountain range
called "Eifel". Narrower roads, especially those with a sidepath are
both more unpleasant and more risky. Motorists can sniff "bicycle
infrastructure" even when there isn't any. Any rotten footpath is good
enough. :-(
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
--
Cheers,

John B.
Roger Merriman
2025-01-14 11:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 18:27:09 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
Exactly. An quite a lot of roads with no limit (meaning limited to 100
km/h outside of highways) are wide enough or have little traffic, so
that overtaking slower vehicles is not much of a problem. I a driver is
able to overtake another that only drives at 80 km/h, he or she is
certailny able to overtake a cyclist doing 30 km/h only. Most probably,
the latter is much easier to do, for obvious reasons.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
Time to show this short video again
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20210710/L113.mp4>
We have used that road quite often, because it is the best connection to
get out of the larger Rhine valley and into the low mountain range
called "Eifel". Narrower roads, especially those with a sidepath are
both more unpleasant and more risky. Motorists can sniff "bicycle
infrastructure" even when there isn't any. Any rotten footpath is good
enough. :-(
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Considering Bangkok’s size ie it’s comparable to London/New York in size
building more lanes isn’t going to work just drive more demand which seems
to be truism world wide.

Car and car infrastructure is expensive and hugely wasteful in terms of
space, doesn’t seem to have viable alternatives to cars and or motorcycles
and the generally lax enforcement and expectations as you note in your
other post.

And this absolutely has a effect on Thailand’s place high up with traffic
deaths/injurys

Either way knocking over buildings/districts as the American cities did
with the freeways is unlikely to work, note number of US cities are
removing them or rather some parts of them.

Roger Merriman
John B.
2025-01-14 13:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 18:27:09 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
Exactly. An quite a lot of roads with no limit (meaning limited to 100
km/h outside of highways) are wide enough or have little traffic, so
that overtaking slower vehicles is not much of a problem. I a driver is
able to overtake another that only drives at 80 km/h, he or she is
certailny able to overtake a cyclist doing 30 km/h only. Most probably,
the latter is much easier to do, for obvious reasons.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
Time to show this short video again
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20210710/L113.mp4>
We have used that road quite often, because it is the best connection to
get out of the larger Rhine valley and into the low mountain range
called "Eifel". Narrower roads, especially those with a sidepath are
both more unpleasant and more risky. Motorists can sniff "bicycle
infrastructure" even when there isn't any. Any rotten footpath is good
enough. :-(
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Considering Bangkok’s size ie it’s comparable to London/New York in size
building more lanes isn’t going to work just drive more demand which seems
to be truism world wide.
Bangkok and London are very nearly the same "size" both in area and
population.
Car and car infrastructure is expensive and hugely wasteful in terms of
space, doesn’t seem to have viable alternatives to cars and or motorcycles
and the generally lax enforcement and expectations as you note in your
other post.
Bangkok has, since I first came there, built a rather extensive system
of above the ground trains (the Sky Train) and underground subways
(The Deerhound) system and in addition has a vast number of taxies. Un
fortunately they also have a vast number of people :-) so traveling
during "going to work" and "Going home" periods is very crowded,
(very, very crowded :-).

The roads are a problem as nearly all are bounded by stores ranging
from multi story to "shop houses". A shop house is a 2 or 3 story
building with a shop in the ground floor 1 or 2 upper stories for the
owner and his family to live in and to widen the road all those
buildings would have to be torn down. They did this on a street - a
connecting street between two large roads, that we lived near... less
then 1 mile long and it took 5 years to do.

P.S. Much of the terrifyiing road death statistics in Thailand are due
to small motorcycles - 100cc, etc. that are responsible for about 80%
of the deaths..
And this absolutely has a effect on Thailand’s place high up with traffic
deaths/injurys
Either way knocking over buildings/districts as the American cities did
with the freeways is unlikely to work, note number of US cities are
removing them or rather some parts of them.
Roger Merriman
--
Cheers,

John B.
Roger Merriman
2025-01-14 19:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 18:27:09 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:24:29 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
"Traffic traveling as much as 90 kph" is usually much less problem for
me than John pretends, in part because most of the roads I ride have
slower speeds, chosen because of aesthetics. Less traffic and less road
noise is more pleasant.
Exactly. An quite a lot of roads with no limit (meaning limited to 100
km/h outside of highways) are wide enough or have little traffic, so
that overtaking slower vehicles is not much of a problem. I a driver is
able to overtake another that only drives at 80 km/h, he or she is
certailny able to overtake a cyclist doing 30 km/h only. Most probably,
the latter is much easier to do, for obvious reasons.
Post by Frank Krygowski
And even those with 55 mph cars seldom have continuous platoons. One or
two motorists at a time are easy to deal with. In either case, when
motorists see me at lane center, they seem to realize right away that
they will have to adjust their speed, their lane choice or whatever.
It's rare to even get a horn honk.
Time to show this short video again
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20210710/L113.mp4>
We have used that road quite often, because it is the best connection to
get out of the larger Rhine valley and into the low mountain range
called "Eifel". Narrower roads, especially those with a sidepath are
both more unpleasant and more risky. Motorists can sniff "bicycle
infrastructure" even when there isn't any. Any rotten footpath is good
enough. :-(
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Considering Bangkok’s size ie it’s comparable to London/New York in size
building more lanes isn’t going to work just drive more demand which seems
to be truism world wide.
Bangkok and London are very nearly the same "size" both in area and
population.
Car and car infrastructure is expensive and hugely wasteful in terms of
space, doesn’t seem to have viable alternatives to cars and or motorcycles
and the generally lax enforcement and expectations as you note in your
other post.
Bangkok has, since I first came there, built a rather extensive system
of above the ground trains (the Sky Train) and underground subways
(The Deerhound) system and in addition has a vast number of taxies. Un
fortunately they also have a vast number of people :-) so traveling
during "going to work" and "Going home" periods is very crowded,
(very, very crowded :-).
It’s described as exciting for transport folks, due to the building of new
lines and services, it’s equivalent to London in population and area, but
has a much lower transit capacity hence being viewed as exciting! For
reference last new transit line built the Elizabeth line which is
essentially a line crossing west to east london hence its original name of
cross rail, carries 700,000 folks per day.

Being blunt Bangkok has some serious catching up to do! But does have the
advantage of seeing what worked or not with transit.
Post by John B.
The roads are a problem as nearly all are bounded by stores ranging
from multi story to "shop houses". A shop house is a 2 or 3 story
building with a shop in the ground floor 1 or 2 upper stories for the
owner and his family to live in and to widen the road all those
buildings would have to be torn down. They did this on a street - a
connecting street between two large roads, that we lived near... less
then 1 mile long and it took 5 years to do.
P.S. Much of the terrifyiing road death statistics in Thailand are due
to small motorcycles - 100cc, etc. that are responsible for about 80%
of the deaths..
And this absolutely has a effect on Thailand’s place high up with traffic
deaths/injurys
Either way knocking over buildings/districts as the American cities did
with the freeways is unlikely to work, note number of US cities are
removing them or rather some parts of them.
Roger Merriman
Roger Merriman
Wolfgang Strobl
2025-01-14 13:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Am Tue, 14 Jan 2025 10:02:12 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Actually, I did something similar, after an accident forced me to use a
small motorcycle instead of using the bicycle, for some years. I didn't
like it, but I preferred to move slowly rather than wait in a car.

Bangkok has multiline roads that aren't nearly as congested. For example

<https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nuTVRCiD2DkJGyL8>

Perhaps cycling is something of a taboo there.
--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions
John B.
2025-01-15 03:18:43 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 14:22:38 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Tue, 14 Jan 2025 10:02:12 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Actually, I did something similar, after an accident forced me to use a
small motorcycle instead of using the bicycle, for some years. I didn't
like it, but I preferred to move slowly rather than wait in a car.
Bangkok has multiline roads that aren't nearly as congested. For example
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nuTVRCiD2DkJGyL8>
Your photos are a bit confusing - the streets near the large temple
are restricted access streets.

Try
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2901872/bangkok-traffic-alert-as-construction-starts

For the real Bangkok :-)
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Perhaps cycling is something of a taboo there.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Wolfgang Strobl
2025-01-15 15:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:18:43 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 14:22:38 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Tue, 14 Jan 2025 10:02:12 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Actually, I did something similar, after an accident forced me to use a
small motorcycle instead of using the bicycle, for some years. I didn't
like it, but I preferred to move slowly rather than wait in a car.
Bangkok has multiline roads that aren't nearly as congested. For example
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nuTVRCiD2DkJGyL8>
Your photos are a bit confusing - the streets near the large temple
are restricted access streets.
Great concept. The authorities in my country came up with a similar idea
a long time ago, already: Just put a "No cycling" sign on a road that is
perfectly suitable for cycling and you'll get rid of those annoying
cyclists.


If a roadway allows two mopeds to ride next to each other in one lane or
four mopeds in three lanes next to each other, then you can ride a
bicycle perfectly there. Or you could, if you were allowed to.

-> <https://maps.app.goo.gl/M75sx8y9bNhB8VVz5>
Post by John B.
Try
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2901872/bangkok-traffic-alert-as-construction-starts
First hit for 'Ratchathewi intersection':
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/HKwgkQgVdiPKA9NS7>

Looks extremely dangerous. Sorry, just kidding.
Post by John B.
For the real Bangkok :-)
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Perhaps cycling is something of a taboo there.
Or perhaps it is a cultural thing.
--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions
AMuzi
2025-01-15 15:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:18:43 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 14:22:38 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Tue, 14 Jan 2025 10:02:12 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Actually, I did something similar, after an accident forced me to use a
small motorcycle instead of using the bicycle, for some years. I didn't
like it, but I preferred to move slowly rather than wait in a car.
Bangkok has multiline roads that aren't nearly as congested. For example
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nuTVRCiD2DkJGyL8>
Your photos are a bit confusing - the streets near the large temple
are restricted access streets.
Great concept. The authorities in my country came up with a similar idea
a long time ago, already: Just put a "No cycling" sign on a road that is
perfectly suitable for cycling and you'll get rid of those annoying
cyclists.
If a roadway allows two mopeds to ride next to each other in one lane or
four mopeds in three lanes next to each other, then you can ride a
bicycle perfectly there. Or you could, if you were allowed to.
-> <https://maps.app.goo.gl/M75sx8y9bNhB8VVz5>
Post by John B.
Try
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2901872/bangkok-traffic-alert-as-construction-starts
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/HKwgkQgVdiPKA9NS7>
Looks extremely dangerous. Sorry, just kidding.
Post by John B.
For the real Bangkok :-)
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Perhaps cycling is something of a taboo there.
Or perhaps it is a cultural thing.
" If a roadway allows two mopeds to ride next to each other
in one lane or four mopeds in three lanes next to each
other, then you can ride a bicycle perfectly there. Or you
could, if you were allowed to.

As is often noted, the most frightening sentence is, "We're
from the government. We're here to help you."
--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-15 15:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/HKwgkQgVdiPKA9NS7>
Looks extremely dangerous. Sorry, just kidding.
To some, it does look extremely dangerous. It depends on one's level of
knowledge and level of courage.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Roger Merriman
2025-01-15 16:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/HKwgkQgVdiPKA9NS7>
Looks extremely dangerous. Sorry, just kidding.
To some, it does look extremely dangerous. It depends on one's level of
knowledge and level of courage.
Doesn’t look particularly dangerous though probably tedious, while I can
and do ride in similar situations and did lot of the Embankment was like
this pre segregation, ie busy stop start traffic and so on, the bike lane
is much more chilled experience, but being a confident and fast cyclist I
used it pre segregation,and wasn’t concerned about risks, though clearly
they are now lower.

But yes broadly speaking that sort of roads are rideable by some cyclists
though tends to be fairly narrow type.

Roger Merriman
John B.
2025-01-15 17:26:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 16:21:33 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:18:43 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 14:22:38 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Am Tue, 14 Jan 2025 10:02:12 +0700 schrieb John B.
Post by John B.
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
Actually, I did something similar, after an accident forced me to use a
small motorcycle instead of using the bicycle, for some years. I didn't
like it, but I preferred to move slowly rather than wait in a car.
Bangkok has multiline roads that aren't nearly as congested. For example
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nuTVRCiD2DkJGyL8>
Your photos are a bit confusing - the streets near the large temple
are restricted access streets.
Great concept. The authorities in my country came up with a similar idea
a long time ago, already: Just put a "No cycling" sign on a road that is
perfectly suitable for cycling and you'll get rid of those annoying
cyclists.
In this case it works very well. To a Thai those streets would be
similar to streets around the Vatican :-)
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
If a roadway allows two mopeds to ride next to each other in one lane or
four mopeds in three lanes next to each other, then you can ride a
bicycle perfectly there. Or you could, if you were allowed to.
-> <https://maps.app.goo.gl/M75sx8y9bNhB8VVz5>
Post by John B.
Try
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2901872/bangkok-traffic-alert-as-construction-starts
<https://maps.app.goo.gl/HKwgkQgVdiPKA9NS7>
Looks extremely dangerous. Sorry, just kidding.
Post by John B.
For the real Bangkok :-)
Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Perhaps cycling is something of a taboo there.
Or perhaps it is a cultural thing.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-14 16:43:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
Now try some of the roads here :-)
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1762349/understanding-bangkoks-traffic-woes
???

A bicycle would be the fastest way of moving through that congestion!
--
- Frank Krygowski
Joy Beeson
2025-01-14 17:55:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 11:43:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
A bicycle would be the fastest way of moving through that congestion!
I once gained on the cars on Central Avenue in Albany, New York while
walking on the sidewalk.

Wearing cycle-only slot-cleat shoes.

(This was *after* a major construction vastly improved the street.)
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Roger Merriman
2025-01-14 18:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 11:43:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
A bicycle would be the fastest way of moving through that congestion!
I once gained on the cars on Central Avenue in Albany, New York while
walking on the sidewalk.
Wearing cycle-only slot-cleat shoes.
(This was *after* a major construction vastly improved the street.)
One of my wife’s colleagues (jokingly) complained that she had overtaken
her on the bus, by bike, and walking said bike on the pavement! And had
clearly been at work ages before she arrived!

I’d say not only are bikes good at congested street but also can use less
congested routes. Ie the big green spaces, ie don’t need to go around
stuff, one can cross the Thames for example by bike by more bridges than by
car.

Roger Merriman
John B.
2025-01-13 02:32:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:10:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Well, I did mention the Km long line of trucks. This is the main
highway to N.E. Thailand and probably there are alternate "farm roads
that your get you there... in a day o so, as opposed to about three
hours.

It is a multi lane highway - 6 to 8, 10 in a few places, lanes and
posted , the outer lane for trucks, next lane slow cars, next faster
and inner really fast. I believe 100 kmh in some places.
See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2775278/heavy-songkran-traffic-in-korat
Seize the lane?
--
Cheers,

John B.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-13 02:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:10:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Well, I did mention the Km long line of trucks. This is the main
highway to N.E. Thailand and probably there are alternate "farm roads
that your get you there... in a day o so, as opposed to about three
hours.
It is a multi lane highway - 6 to 8, 10 in a few places, lanes and
posted , the outer lane for trucks, next lane slow cars, next faster
and inner really fast. I believe 100 kmh in some places.
See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2775278/heavy-songkran-traffic-in-korat
Seize the lane?
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.

That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.

I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
--
- Frank Krygowski
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-13 08:31:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 21:50:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:10:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Well, I did mention the Km long line of trucks. This is the main
highway to N.E. Thailand and probably there are alternate "farm roads
that your get you there... in a day o so, as opposed to about three
hours.
It is a multi lane highway - 6 to 8, 10 in a few places, lanes and
posted , the outer lane for trucks, next lane slow cars, next faster
and inner really fast. I believe 100 kmh in some places.
See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2775278/heavy-songkran-traffic-in-korat
Seize the lane?
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
I see many people riding multiple lane highways on the far right and
I've done it occasionally when there was no other good alternative and
traffic was light. However only a fool would ride where they blocked
high speed heavy traffic.


--
C'est bon
Soloman
cyclintom
2025-01-14 15:40:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Catrike Ryder
I see many people riding multiple lane highways on the far right and
I've done it occasionally when there was no other good alternative and
traffic was light. However only a fool would ride where they blocked
high speed heavy traffic.
Frank is king and rules all.
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 16:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Catrike Ryder
I see many people riding multiple lane highways on the far right and
I've done it occasionally when there was no other good alternative and
traffic was light. However only a fool would ride where they blocked
high speed heavy traffic.
Frank is king and rules all.
People who claim to be exceptional, rarely are, perhaps, never are.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
John B.
2025-01-16 06:25:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 03:31:23 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 21:50:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:10:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Well, I did mention the Km long line of trucks. This is the main
highway to N.E. Thailand and probably there are alternate "farm roads
that your get you there... in a day o so, as opposed to about three
hours.
It is a multi lane highway - 6 to 8, 10 in a few places, lanes and
posted , the outer lane for trucks, next lane slow cars, next faster
and inner really fast. I believe 100 kmh in some places.
See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2775278/heavy-songkran-traffic-in-korat
Seize the lane?
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
I see many people riding multiple lane highways on the far right and
I've done it occasionally when there was no other good alternative and
traffic was light. However only a fool would ride where they blocked
high speed heavy traffic.
I had mentioned a line of heavy trucks, one Kilometer long, traveling
perhaps 70 - 80 kph. Can you imagine "Seizing the Lane" in front of
that lot?

Apparently,"Stupidity" is not a word in Frank's vocabulary.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-16 09:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 03:31:23 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 21:50:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:10:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Well, I did mention the Km long line of trucks. This is the main
highway to N.E. Thailand and probably there are alternate "farm roads
that your get you there... in a day o so, as opposed to about three
hours.
It is a multi lane highway - 6 to 8, 10 in a few places, lanes and
posted , the outer lane for trucks, next lane slow cars, next faster
and inner really fast. I believe 100 kmh in some places.
See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2775278/heavy-songkran-traffic-in-korat
Seize the lane?
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
I see many people riding multiple lane highways on the far right and
I've done it occasionally when there was no other good alternative and
traffic was light. However only a fool would ride where they blocked
high speed heavy traffic.
I had mentioned a line of heavy trucks, one Kilometer long, traveling
perhaps 70 - 80 kph. Can you imagine "Seizing the Lane" in front of
that lot?
Apparently,"Stupidity" is not a word in Frank's vocabulary.
Every now and then, against the wishes of my wife, I ride from my home
instead of hauling the Catrike to my regular start off point.

It's easier for me and in my opinion, safer to ride the four lane
section than two.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
zen cycle
2025-01-16 10:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 03:31:23 -0500, Catrike Ryder
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 21:50:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:10:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Well, I did mention the Km long line of trucks. This is the main
highway to N.E. Thailand and probably there are alternate "farm roads
that your get you there... in a day o so, as opposed to about three
hours.
It is a multi lane highway - 6 to 8, 10 in a few places, lanes and
posted , the outer lane for trucks, next lane slow cars, next faster
and inner really fast. I believe 100 kmh in some places.
See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2775278/heavy-songkran-traffic-in-korat
Seize the lane?
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
I see many people riding multiple lane highways on the far right and
I've done it occasionally when there was no other good alternative and
traffic was light. However only a fool would ride where they blocked
high speed heavy traffic.
I had mentioned a line of heavy trucks, one Kilometer long, traveling
perhaps 70 - 80 kph. Can you imagine "Seizing the Lane" in front of
that lot?
Probably not. A competent rider who knows how to take a lane would
likely wait until it's safe to do so.
Post by John B.
Apparently,"Stupidity" is not a word in Frank's vocabulary.
Apparently you're arguing simply to take a contradictory position. No
one in this forum who has discussed taking the lane has suggested it can
be done under any circumstance at any time. You're sounding more and
more like kunich and the floriduh dumbass.
cyclintom
2025-01-14 15:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
People are allowed to hold different opinions than you. Since you haven't noticed, you are not an opinion maker.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-14 19:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
People are allowed to hold different opinions than you. Since you haven't noticed, you are not an opinion maker.
And we are here to discuss facts and opinions, are we not?
--
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
2025-01-14 19:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways,
mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on
freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and
kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller
roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55
mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so
even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much
flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never
generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've
known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a
local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
People are allowed to hold different opinions than you.
Since you haven't noticed, you are not an opinion maker.
And we are here to discuss facts and opinions, are we not?
Nothing stops us, no matter how trivial, pointless or
off-topic. Which is fine with me.
--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 20:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways,
mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on
freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and
kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller
roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55
mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so
even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much
flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never
generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've
known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a
local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
People are allowed to hold different opinions than you.
Since you haven't noticed, you are not an opinion maker.
And we are here to discuss facts and opinions, are we not?
Nothing stops us, no matter how trivial, pointless or
off-topic. Which is fine with me.
Otherwise, bandwidth just sits there with nothing to do.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
Catrike Ryder
2025-01-14 20:23:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 14:39:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
People are allowed to hold different opinions than you. Since you haven't noticed, you are not an opinion maker.
And we are here to discuss facts and opinions, are we not?
There are always plenty of personal opinions. Many people give no
credence to the opinions of a man who relates fiction as fact.

--
C'est bon
Soloman
Radey Shouman
2025-01-14 21:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
It sounds and looks like a freeway. I've ridden freeways, mostly out in
the western U.S. states, when there were no alternatives.
That lack of alternatives generally makes bicycling on freeways legal.
If traffic was low, it could be pleasant, and my wife and kid both
preferred it because gradients were less than on smaller roads.
I prefer quieter roads, as I've said. But I do ride 55 mph four lanes
from time to time. I do ride lane center, and often do so even if
there's a shoulder, because shoulders gather too much flat-causing
debris. It's generally not a problem, and it's never generated even a
close call for me. But I know it scares some people. I've known people
who were terrified to ride on any four lane road, even a local one with
a 40 mph speed limit and low traffic!
People are allowed to hold different opinions than you. Since you
haven't noticed, you are not an opinion maker.
And we are here to discuss facts and opinions, are we not?
We are here, in the immortal words I once heard Kurt Vonnegut say, "to
fart around". Just as with bicycles or anything else, motivations vary.

--
cyclintom
2025-01-13 16:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by cyclintom
Post by Frank Krygowski
I've never said I take the lane "everywhere." I've said many, many times
that if there's enough space to safely share the lane, I do that.
I'm not riding anywhere now, with lots of now and temperatures below 25
Fahrenheit. But in milder weather, yes, I prefer to ride quiet streets.
But when necessary or desirable, I ride the four lane with ~30,000 cars
per day that's a quarter mile from my house. I ride city center downtown
streets. I ride country roads, including state highways. Out west, I've
ridden hundreds of miles on freeways where that was legal.
Frank, the problemn is that you're always careful to leave and out while implying otherwise. Do not say " I take the lane" without including "when safe".
I take the lane pretty much by default. I don't take the lane when the
lane is wide enough to safely share - that is, so wide that a car could
pass me giving at least three feet of clearance without moving left into
the next lane over.
I keep asking you and others about being approached from behind by an
8.5 foot truck (a common truck width) while riding in a 10 foot lane
(common around here) with no shoulder (also common). I absolutely would
be in the center of the lane in that situation. There's no reasonable
alternative other than jumping off your bike - and perhaps, touching
your forehead to the ground as a sign of submission.
I have a legal right to the road. I use it.
Here, and I suspect in the U.S., we have fleets of 40 foot flat bed
trucks hauling a 40 foot, 10 wheel flat bed trailer, with two 40 ft.
shipping containers loaded, traveling about 80 KPH. One day on the
road from Bangkok to N.E. Thailand saw a measured 1 Km line of them
(measured with speedometer) running nose to tail.
Of course you have a legal right to use the road so given your
statement above I'm, sure you would have no qualms about "Seizing the
Lane" in those circumstances.
In general, I'd prefer not to ride on such a road if alternatives exist.
But I do regularly ride on a four lane with well over 30,000 vehicles
per day. You don't say whether the road you described had more than one
lane in the relevant direction. The nice thing about a four lane is
motorists can merge into the next lane, generally with little trouble.
I've found that riding very obviously at lane center causes them to take
notice earlier, and merge left earlier.
Given Krygowski's propensity to lie and exaggerate...
That's bullshit.
coupled with his
insistence that riding on bidirectional bike paths is dangerous...
And that's exaggerated.
I'd
bet there's zero occasions of him ever riding along at 18 MPH ten feet
in front of an 18 wheeler on an unobstructed 60+ mph highway.
Mr. Tricycle of course will not believe this. But some details, for
I was not always so adamant about taking the lane. My "Road to Damascus"
moment came one summer day. Our bike club was hosting a visit by a group
of about 20 Russian cyclists, riding from Chicago to DC. Various club
members (including us) put them up overnight.
Anyway, some of us had ridden west to meet them and escort them in on a
rainy day. But they were behind schedule, and I had to turn back because
I was teaching an evening class that day. One other friend turned back
with me. This was on Route 165, west of North Lima, Ohio. One lane in
each direction, no shoulders at that time (instead, dropoffs at many
locations), speed limit 55 mph, and plenty of truck traffic then as now.
It began to really really pour. At that time, Rt. 165 was in very bad
shape, with serious potholes, especially at the right edge of the lane.
We were still attempting to share the lane, and trucks and cars were
passing with maybe a couple feet of clearance.
But the potholes became full of water, meaning it was impossible to tell
if the puddles directly ahead were 1/2" deep or 3" deep. It was obvious
that I might drop into a pothole and crash leftward in front of a car or
truck. I told my friend that I thought we needed to ride lane center,
where the pavement was much smoother. I was nervous about it, and she
was even more nervous, but what we were doing was obviously too
dangerous. We moved left.
Soon a semi rig came up from behind as oncoming cars occupied the
opposing lane. We nervously held our position, and I still remember the
sound of the semi's brakes. But the driver slowed to our speed, waited
until it was clear and passed using the opposing lane. He didn't honk,
he didn't demonstrate any anger. He just drove safely around us.
Since that moment, the same scenario (without the rain, usually) has
occurred hundreds of times.
And so, what would _you_ have done?
Granted, the guy who rides only a tricycle would never be out there,
because it's not a flat Florida rail trail paid for by a socialistic
government wasting tax dollars on playthings for the timid.
But I keep asking people like John and Tom: What do you do? Or what have
you done?
I imagine they either never, ever bicycled on such a road, or they
jumped off their bikes and humbly bowed to their superiors.
Frank, please do not say that Catrike exaggerates your opinions because not only does he not but your contemptuous attitude toward him for suggesting what you have actually said is proof that you indeed have done what he says.
John B.
2025-01-11 02:45:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.

Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."

That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at
all.
--
Cheers,

John B.
zen cycle
2025-01-11 11:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.
Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."
That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at
all.
If they did it right it would have worked.

I do it all the time, It works when done right. Sort of like giving
someone with no clue how to handle a hand gun a hand gun and telling
them to fend for themself.

If you do it right, it works, and works well. If you don't do it right,
you stand a good chance of getting yourself killed.
Roger Merriman
2025-01-11 17:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by zen cycle
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.
Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."
That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at
all.
If they did it right it would have worked.
I do it all the time, It works when done right. Sort of like giving
someone with no clue how to handle a hand gun a hand gun and telling
them to fend for themself.
If you do it right, it works, and works well. If you don't do it right,
you stand a good chance of getting yourself killed.
Indeed I am fairly pragmatic but also used to riding in urban and suburban
environments which don’t differ somewhat.

And as such I ride defensively ie take the lane and so on, and use cycle
infrastructure or not as the case maybe ie still some pointless at least to
myself stuff about.

Roger Merriman
cyclintom
2025-01-11 20:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by zen cycle
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.
Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."
That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at
all.
If they did it right it would have worked.
I do it all the time, It works when done right. Sort of like giving
someone with no clue how to handle a hand gun a hand gun and telling
them to fend for themself.
If you do it right, it works, and works well. If you don't do it right,
you stand a good chance of getting yourself killed.
Indeed I am fairly pragmatic but also used to riding in urban and suburban
environments which don?t differ somewhat.
And as such I ride defensively ie take the lane and so on, and use cycle
infrastructure or not as the case maybe ie still some pointless at least to
myself stuff about.
I take the lame when it is safe to do so. The ride over Palomares always ends with a ride down Niles Canyon and there is road work which almost entirely eliminates the shoulder. This means that I must take the lane and I do. But I ride very fast and faster autos behind me pass across a double yellow line which is illegal in California even "when safe". when they are doing this I move as far right as practical since oncoming traffic appearing around a bend will cause the passing vehicle to pull back into the proper lane and cyclists be damned.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-12 00:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by cyclintom
Post by Roger Merriman
Post by zen cycle
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.
Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."
That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at
all.
If they did it right it would have worked.
I do it all the time, It works when done right. Sort of like giving
someone with no clue how to handle a hand gun a hand gun and telling
them to fend for themself.
If you do it right, it works, and works well. If you don't do it right,
you stand a good chance of getting yourself killed.
Indeed I am fairly pragmatic but also used to riding in urban and suburban
environments which don?t differ somewhat.
And as such I ride defensively ie take the lane and so on, and use cycle
infrastructure or not as the case maybe ie still some pointless at least to
myself stuff about.
I take the lame when it is safe to do so. The ride over Palomares always ends with a ride down Niles Canyon and there is road work which almost entirely eliminates the shoulder. This means that I must take the lane and I do. But I ride very fast and faster autos behind me pass across a double yellow line which is illegal in California even "when safe". when they are doing this I move as far right as practical since oncoming traffic appearing around a bend will cause the passing vehicle to pull back into the proper lane and cyclists be damned.
I'll note that another benefit of riding near lane center is that you
have somewhere to go if a motorist does pull back into your lane too soon.

I once had that happen to me on the four lane very near my home. It was
a trucker pulling a long flatbed trailer. The cab cleared me by a great
distance, but he may have underestimated my speed and thought his
trailer would be past me.
--
- Frank Krygowski
cyclintom
2025-01-13 16:38:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat Jan 11 17:14:23 2025 Roger Merriman wrote:
n
Post by Roger Merriman
environments which don?t differ somewhat.
And as such I ride defensively ie take the lane and so on, and use cycle
infrastructure or not as the case maybe ie still some pointless at least to
myself stuff about.
But as you've seen, Frank doesn't believe in cycling infrastructure.
cyclintom
2025-01-11 20:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by zen cycle
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.
Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."
That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at
all.
If they did it right it would have worked.
I do it all the time, It works when done right. Sort of like giving
someone with no clue how to handle a hand gun a hand gun and telling
them to fend for themself.
If you do it right, it works, and works well. If you don't do it right,
you stand a good chance of getting yourself killed.
Flunky, John has NEVER said nor implicated that you should hand a gun to someone without training. Try and control your imagination.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-11 17:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in a
10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.
Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."
That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at
all.
As I recall, the woman on the scooter pulled out directly in front of a
truck. That's not at all what I do. I default to roughly lane center,
what's sometimes known as "primary position." If I"m not already there,
I check to be sure it's clear before moving there. This is clearly
explained in every legitimate bike education program.

But John, you haven't answered my question either, even though I've
asked it countless times. I suppose you don't ride any more, but you
certainly did for years.

Back when you rode, were you _never_ in a lane too narrow to share with
a wide vehicle, and with no shoulder?

8.5 foot truck, ten foot lane. It's not an uncommon situation.

What did you do?
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
2025-01-13 17:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:40:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-
altering-
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by John B.
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide
truck tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is
to take the lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow
in time.
I asked what you do when an 8.5 foot truck comes up from behind you in
a 10 foot lane.
My answer is to take the lane. I've done it thousands of times. It works.
What's your answer? Do you get off the road?
Ah yes... I once described an accident here where two women and two
tiny kids on a motor scooter "took the lane". The truck certainly
attempted to stop, in fact the trailer had tipped over and was still
laying in the road when I came by, but still wasn't able to stop in
time. The results was 4 people in the hospital, two of which died.
Your response was, "Oh! They didn't do it right."
That's when I realized that your advise really wasn't very good at all.
As I recall, the woman on the scooter pulled out directly in front of a
truck. That's not at all what I do. I default to roughly lane center,
what's sometimes known as "primary position." If I"m not already there,
I check to be sure it's clear before moving there. This is clearly
explained in every legitimate bike education program.
But John, you haven't answered my question either, even though I've
asked it countless times. I suppose you don't ride any more, but you
certainly did for years.
Back when you rode, were you _never_ in a lane too narrow to share with
a wide vehicle, and with no shoulder?
8.5 foot truck, ten foot lane. It's not an uncommon situation.
What did you do?
Frank, you claimed to have ridden coast to coast. With your claims of the
way you ride I simply cannot believe you did that because over a large
part of that trip you have to ride on main roads and you're obviously
still alive and drivers would not put up with someone that rides a dead
slow touring bike taking the lane. Even route 66 which is a nothing road
with little traffic on it would be the end of you.
Frank Krygowski
2025-01-13 18:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
8.5 foot truck, ten foot lane. It's not an uncommon situation.
What did you do?
Frank, you claimed to have ridden coast to coast. With your claims of the
way you ride I simply cannot believe you did that because over a large
part of that trip you have to ride on main roads and you're obviously
still alive and drivers would not put up with someone that rides a dead
slow touring bike taking the lane. Even route 66 which is a nothing road
with little traffic on it would be the end of you.
And yet, we did that. Not Route 66; we were much farther north. Do you
need me to post scans of newspaper interviews, or what?

Tom's argument is silly, as usual. "I think it's too scary and
dangerous, so you cannot possibly have done it."

Tom, you're wrong. Deal with it.
--
- Frank Krygowski
cyclintom
2025-01-14 15:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
8.5 foot truck, ten foot lane. It's not an uncommon situation.
What did you do?
Frank, you claimed to have ridden coast to coast. With your claims of the
way you ride I simply cannot believe you did that because over a large
part of that trip you have to ride on main roads and you're obviously
still alive and drivers would not put up with someone that rides a dead
slow touring bike taking the lane. Even route 66 which is a nothing road
with little traffic on it would be the end of you.
And yet, we did that. Not Route 66; we were much farther north. Do you
need me to post scans of newspaper interviews, or what?
Tom's argument is silly, as usual. "I think it's too scary and
dangerous, so you cannot possibly have done it."
Tom, you're wrong. Deal with it.
As with everything else with you, you invent a world of your own to deal with. Bike lanes are supposed to be outside of parking lanes and cyclists in plain view, this includes a cyclist traveling in the parking lane in the absence of a line of parked cars.
John B.
2025-01-11 04:01:21 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 19:20:41 -0000 (UTC), Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
It's easy for Frankie.

We had a similar case here some years do where two women, with two
babies, on a motorcycle tried Franks recommended, "Seize the Lane".-
Unfortunately it didn't work - 2 dead, 2 in the hospital...
Frank's was solution was to say, "Oh! They didn't do it right!


I do believe that I would prefer a solution that didn't leave me dead
on the highway.
--
Cheers,

John B.
cyclintom
2025-01-13 16:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John B.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 19:20:41 -0000 (UTC), Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
https://komonews.com/news/local/cyclist-green-lake-neighborhood-king-
county-superior-court-aviv-litov-26-years-old-bike-lanes-life-altering-
injuries-strittmatter-firm-configuration-tesla
But Frank, didn't you just ask me what I did when a 10 foot wide truck
tried to pass me on a 12 foot road? Apparently your answer is to take the
lane and hope that the truck isn't going too fast to slow in time.
It's easy for Frankie.
We had a similar case here some years do where two women, with two
babies, on a motorcycle tried Franks recommended, "Seize the Lane".-
Unfortunately it didn't work - 2 dead, 2 in the hospital...
Frank's was solution was to say, "Oh! They didn't do it right!
I do believe that I would prefer a solution that didn't leave me dead
on the highway.
I can only imagine that Frank stays on side streets and off of main drags. I do also when I can but I put in so many miles that I am stuck riding in heavy traffic on dangerous roads. Niles Canyon used to be a fairly safe road but then it became a commute route. Now you had better know what you're doing. Someone passing you on a turn with no clear view forward is common there now. January is only half over and already I have 200 miles and over 5,000 feet of climbing
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