Getting old is not for sissies

Post by AMuzi
I found that one icy spot on the crown of the county road
while turning left into the village at the end of my ride
yesterday. Just a minor spill, had a small cut over one eye;
Felt like an idiot but no big deal otherwise.
Woke up today with an achy bruised rib and a big purple shiner.

I don't know about icy spots, but the "shiner" was probably
caused by the small cut. It's blood that seeps down through tissues.
Best way to avoid that is with cold compresses until any internal
bleeding stops. Wet cloth full of ice, 10-15 minutes on, rest 10
minutes, repeat until you get bored.
You can't do anything about ribs. A friend once gave me a hug
and broke one of my ribs. Osteoporosis sucks. Very painful. A hot
compress might help, but not before tomorrow,
Painkillers --> I wouldn't go any stronger than paracetamol.
You have my sympathies.
[]'s

--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
Google Fuchsia - 2021

AMuzi

2025-02-28 16:22:26 UTC

Post by Shadow

Thanks.
Embarrassing with the eye, but it's not the sharp pain of
broken ribs (several iterations on those).

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski

2025-02-28 16:14:11 UTC

I found that one icy spot on the crown of the county road while turning
left into the village at the end of my ride yesterday. Just a minor
spill, had a small cut over one eye; Felt like an idiot but no big deal
otherwise.
Woke up today with an achy bruised rib and a big purple shiner.

Sorry to hear that. I was riding over lumpy wet ice in a gravel parking
lot yesterday. I was very conscious that falls can now have much worse
consequences than they once did.

But I think it's still important to keep giving ourselves reasonable
challenges, to maintain skill and agility.

--
- Frank Krygowski

cyclintom

2025-02-28 17:24:28 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
Sorry to hear that. I was riding over lumpy wet ice in a gravel parking
lot yesterday. I was very conscious that falls can now have much worse
consequences than they once did.
But I think it's still important to keep giving ourselves reasonable
challenges, to maintain skill and agility.

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

AMuzi

2025-02-28 17:31:08 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-02-28 17:50:06 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-02-28 21:36:28 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1

Very different from a two-wheeler!

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-02-28 22:14:41 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-02-28 23:40:18 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control. This
may be perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on mine
over decades)

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-02-28 23:52:41 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

Post by AMuzi
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control. This
may be perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on mine
over decades)

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.

I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-03-01 01:10:34 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

I don't proselytize. I like mine; you may not.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 09:06:15 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

I don't proselytize. I like mine; you may not.

I'm not denigrating it, in fact I applaud that you do it. It Just
wouldn't work very well for how I ride. My rides are generally four
hours long and I'm a hardcore masher. My legs need regular 5 or 10
second breaks.

Years ago when I was riding farther and faster my avg cadence was in
the 50s or less. I've got records of 40/50 mile rides with avg cadence
under 40 RPM. Pushing that hard for an hour or two requires breaks,
and I like to keep moving.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-03-01 13:43:22 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

I thought about your comment this morning.

While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 13:51:51 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

I've already taken most of the slack out of the return chain with
idlers and I'm pretty sure I could get the rest.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 15:43:55 UTC

On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 08:51:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

I've already taken most of the slack out of the return chain with
idlers and I'm pretty sure I could get the rest.

Looking at my wife's Catrike Pocket sitting here in front of me, I see
that I could put a return side idler on the bolt that has the power
side idler. Using the 44 tooth chainring the chain would clear the
frame's crossarm and the path to the rear hub would be completely
clear. On my Expedition I'd do the same and I'd have to add an idler
in front of the crossarm, and I already have one there. I have two
idlers behind the crossarm, but those are to keep the long chain from
dragging on speed bumps and I wouldn't need them on a fixie set up. I
can't see why that wouldn't work. Am I missing something?

I'm just curious. I'm not planning on doing this.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-03-01 16:21:52 UTC

Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 08:51:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

I've already taken most of the slack out of the return chain with
idlers and I'm pretty sure I could get the rest.

Looking at my wife's Catrike Pocket sitting here in front of me, I see
that I could put a return side idler on the bolt that has the power
side idler. Using the 44 tooth chainring the chain would clear the
frame's crossarm and the path to the rear hub would be completely
clear. On my Expedition I'd do the same and I'd have to add an idler
in front of the crossarm, and I already have one there. I have two
idlers behind the crossarm, but those are to keep the long chain from
dragging on speed bumps and I wouldn't need them on a fixie set up. I
can't see why that wouldn't work. Am I missing something?
I'm just curious. I'm not planning on doing this.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Agreed, it can be done.

Note you can't use a derailleur or spring tensioner. One
positive aspect is that you have a few places where an
adjustable idler sprocket could be fabricated, so the
single-point frame end won't matter, as it does for a two
wheeler.

But your chain runs are more complex than a standard bicycle.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 17:55:27 UTC

Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 08:51:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.

would be for me.

I quite often coast through sharp corners on the Catrike.
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

I've already taken most of the slack out of the return chain with
idlers and I'm pretty sure I could get the rest.

Looking at my wife's Catrike Pocket sitting here in front of me, I see
that I could put a return side idler on the bolt that has the power
side idler. Using the 44 tooth chainring the chain would clear the
frame's crossarm and the path to the rear hub would be completely
clear. On my Expedition I'd do the same and I'd have to add an idler
in front of the crossarm, and I already have one there. I have two
idlers behind the crossarm, but those are to keep the long chain from
dragging on speed bumps and I wouldn't need them on a fixie set up. I
can't see why that wouldn't work. Am I missing something?
I'm just curious. I'm not planning on doing this.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Agreed, it can be done.
Note you can't use a derailleur or spring tensioner. One
positive aspect is that you have a few places where an
adjustable idler sprocket could be fabricated, so the
single-point frame end won't matter, as it does for a two
wheeler.
But your chain runs are more complex than a standard bicycle.

Idllers and mounts are already available.
https://t-cycle.com/collections/idler-kits

I also have adjustability with the adjustable boom which would be
handy for getting the chain on.

Thanks for the info.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Jeff Liebermann

2025-03-01 18:22:07 UTC

Post by Catrike Ryder
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is not something
I want to do.

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

Hardly straightforward, but certainly possible. Remove the gears,
chain and sprockets and replace them with a hydraulic gear pump, two
hydraulic hoses, and a hydraulic motor on the wheels. This is nothing
new. There are motor vehicles and construction equipment that use a
hydraulic pump at the engine, T junction, and a hydraulic motor on
each wheel.
"Hydraulic hybrid vehicle"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid_vehicle>
It could also be done with a generator and motor drive, but the
efficiency would likely be horrible.

The nice thing about a gear pump is that it's reversible. Want to
pedal (or ride) backwards? No problem.

Efficiency is likely to be lousy. A low power (200 watts delivered)
small hydraulic pump can be designed for an optimistic 64% overall
efficiency (80% each for pump and motors). That's not very good
compared to a chain driven fixie at about 95% efficiency:
<https://www.cyclingabout.com/drivetrain-efficiency-difference-speed-between-1x-2x/>
I can probably squeeze out a few more percentage points by using a
different type of positive displacement pump and motor. The pump and
motor can probably be made from plastic, to reduce weight. Aluminum
automobile brake line should work for hoses.

One potential problem is that the volumetric efficiency of gear pumps
decrease with slower speeds and fluid flow rates. In other words,
gear pumps don't down-scale very well:
"Useful information on External Gear Pumps"
<https://www.michael-smith-engineers.co.uk/resources/useful-info/external-gear-pumps>

Other than eliminating the long and noisy tricycle chain, I don't see
many other benefits for a hydraulic fixie drive system.

--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 18:36:50 UTC

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

Hardly straightforward, but certainly possible. Remove the gears,
chain and sprockets and replace them with a hydraulic gear pump, two
hydraulic hoses, and a hydraulic motor on the wheels. This is nothing
new. There are motor vehicles and construction equipment that use a
hydraulic pump at the engine, T junction, and a hydraulic motor on
each wheel.
"Hydraulic hybrid vehicle"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid_vehicle>
It could also be done with a generator and motor drive, but the
efficiency would likely be horrible.
The nice thing about a gear pump is that it's reversible. Want to
pedal (or ride) backwards? No problem.
Efficiency is likely to be lousy. A low power (200 watts delivered)
small hydraulic pump can be designed for an optimistic 64% overall
efficiency (80% each for pump and motors). That's not very good
<https://www.cyclingabout.com/drivetrain-efficiency-difference-speed-between-1x-2x/>
I can probably squeeze out a few more percentage points by using a
different type of positive displacement pump and motor. The pump and
motor can probably be made from plastic, to reduce weight. Aluminum
automobile brake line should work for hoses.
One potential problem is that the volumetric efficiency of gear pumps
decrease with slower speeds and fluid flow rates. In other words,
"Useful information on External Gear Pumps"
<https://www.michael-smith-engineers.co.uk/resources/useful-info/external-gear-pumps>
Other than eliminating the long and noisy tricycle chain, I don't see
many other benefits for a hydraulic fixie drive system.

For me, there's no advantage of making it a fixie, but I wouldn't need
to get rid of the chain to do it. The chain path can be guided by
idlers and they're not particlarly noisy. Of course, I don't hear too
well, so what do I know?

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 18:55:50 UTC

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

IIRC, hydrostatic transmissions are standard features on zero turn
mowers. But as you noted, the mechanical efficiency is lousy. That's not
a concern if you have a big enough engine and low enough use hours. It's
a huge concern for a cyclist.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

2025-03-01 20:44:07 UTC

On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 07:43:22 -0600, AMuzi

Post by Catrike Ryder
I was thinking about fixies just the other day on my
ride and thought
maybe I could set up a fixie on the Catrike. Then I
considered how
often I coast. Keeping my legs moving the whole ride is
not something
I want to do.

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

IIRC, hydrostatic transmissions are standard features on
zero turn mowers. But as you noted, the mechanical
efficiency is lousy. That's not a concern if you have a big
enough engine and low enough use hours. It's a huge concern
for a cyclist.

I agree.

The long run may be an application for one of teh modern
geared shaft systems:

http://projecthunters.blogspot.com/2013/11/shaft-driven-bicycle-project-ideas.html

perhaps with a chain drive from crank down to hub height.
I'm looking at extremely long chain runs and thinking about
chain weight too.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Jeff Liebermann

2025-03-01 21:39:44 UTC

On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

True, but the huge concern is mostly for racing. If you're using the
bicycle as a moving exercise machine, the added weight and increased
friction might even be considered beneficial. It's like the weights
on barbells where light weight is not a concern. For competitive
fixie racing, maybe the governing organization should specify a
minimum allowable bicycle weight, which might inspire technical
innovation instead of shaving grams off the bicycle weight.

--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-02 02:06:34 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Post by Frank Krygowski
IIRC, hydrostatic transmissions are standard features on zero turn
mowers. But as you noted, the mechanical efficiency is lousy. That's not
a concern if you have a big enough engine and low enough use hours. It's
a huge concern for a cyclist.

I think that level of inefficiency would be a concern of most cyclists,
and very few actually race. It would take a lot of fun out of riding.

I once worked on a bicycle belonging to a friend that had a quite rare
(at least, at the time) 5 speed Sturmey-Archer geared hub. IIRC, there
were two shift cables, one going to each side. Anyway, as I remember
when shifted to its lowest gear it seemed extremely sluggish. Unlike the
equivalent low gear on a derailleur bike, it really didn't seem much
easier going uphill in that gear. Instead it just seemed slower. And as
I recall, that was a not uncommon complaint about that particular hub.

I understand the desire for exercise. But I think almost everyone
prefers to get their exercise while moving farther or faster, not by
slogging along slowly. If that were acceptable, we'd all be riding solid
tires.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

2025-03-02 16:10:08 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Post by Frank Krygowski
IIRC, hydrostatic transmissions are standard features on
zero turn
mowers. But as you noted, the mechanical efficiency is
lousy. That's not
a concern if you have a big enough engine and low enough
use hours. It's
a huge concern for a cyclist.

True, but the huge concern is mostly for racing. If
you're using the
bicycle as a moving exercise machine, the added weight and
increased
friction might even be considered beneficial. It's like
the weights
on barbells where light weight is not a concern. For
competitive
fixie racing, maybe the governing organization should
specify a
minimum allowable bicycle weight, which might inspire
technical
innovation instead of shaving grams off the bicycle weight.

I think that level of inefficiency would be a concern of
most cyclists, and very few actually race. It would take a
lot of fun out of riding.
I once worked on a bicycle belonging to a friend that had a
quite rare (at least, at the time) 5 speed Sturmey-Archer
geared hub. IIRC, there were two shift cables, one going to
each side. Anyway, as I remember when shifted to its lowest
gear it seemed extremely sluggish. Unlike the equivalent low
gear on a derailleur bike, it really didn't seem much easier
going uphill in that gear. Instead it just seemed slower.
And as I recall, that was a not uncommon complaint about
that particular hub.
I understand the desire for exercise. But I think almost
everyone prefers to get their exercise while moving farther
or faster, not by slogging along slowly. If that were
acceptable, we'd all be riding solid tires.

Odd symptom and no logical reason for it IMHO.

The S-5 gearbox (went through several variants) is basically
an AW three speed design with dual sun gears. With no left
side change, it's a three speed (+26.6% high, direct drive,
-21.1% low).

When the left side is changed, the sun gear clutch slides
over to the other gear set, giving -33.3% super low, direct
drive and +50% high.

The gear sizes being different from an AW (-25% low, direct
drive, +33% high), the five model notably gives a faster
high gear but not a lower low gear.

Since everything is in the same oil bath* and rolling on the
same bearing adjustment*, overall efficiency should vary
only in the relative losses of gear diameter which is a
small difference.

* can be correct or deficient

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi

2025-03-02 17:16:10 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Post by Frank Krygowski
IIRC, hydrostatic transmissions are standard features on
zero turn
mowers. But as you noted, the mechanical efficiency is
lousy. That's not
a concern if you have a big enough engine and low enough
use hours. It's
a huge concern for a cyclist.

True, but the huge concern is mostly for racing. If
you're using the
bicycle as a moving exercise machine, the added weight
and increased
friction might even be considered beneficial. It's like
the weights
on barbells where light weight is not a concern. For
competitive
fixie racing, maybe the governing organization should
specify a
minimum allowable bicycle weight, which might inspire
technical
innovation instead of shaving grams off the bicycle weight.

I think that level of inefficiency would be a concern of
most cyclists, and very few actually race. It would take a
lot of fun out of riding.
I once worked on a bicycle belonging to a friend that had
a quite rare (at least, at the time) 5 speed Sturmey-
Archer geared hub. IIRC, there were two shift cables, one
going to each side. Anyway, as I remember when shifted to
its lowest gear it seemed extremely sluggish. Unlike the
equivalent low gear on a derailleur bike, it really didn't
seem much easier going uphill in that gear. Instead it
just seemed slower. And as I recall, that was a not
uncommon complaint about that particular hub.
I understand the desire for exercise. But I think almost
everyone prefers to get their exercise while moving
farther or faster, not by slogging along slowly. If that
were acceptable, we'd all be riding solid tires.

Odd symptom and no logical reason for it IMHO.
The S-5 gearbox (went through several variants) is basically
an AW three speed design with dual sun gears. With no left
side change, it's a three speed (+26.6% high, direct drive,
-21.1% low).
When the left side is changed, the sun gear clutch slides
over to the other gear set, giving -33.3% super low, direct
drive and +50% high.
The gear sizes being different from an AW (-25% low, direct
drive, +33% high), the five model notably gives a faster
high gear but not a lower low gear.
Since everything is in the same oil bath* and rolling on the
same bearing adjustment*, overall efficiency should vary
only in the relative losses of gear diameter which is a
small difference.
* can be correct or deficient

edit: 'not a much lower low gear'

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-02 19:38:40 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I think that level of inefficiency would be a concern of most
cyclists, and very few actually race. It would take a lot of fun out
of riding.
I once worked on a bicycle belonging to a friend that had a quite
rare (at least, at the time) 5 speed Sturmey- Archer geared hub.
IIRC, there were two shift cables, one going to each side. Anyway, as
I remember when shifted to its lowest gear it seemed extremely
sluggish. Unlike the equivalent low gear on a derailleur bike, it
really didn't seem much easier going uphill in that gear. Instead it
just seemed slower. And as I recall, that was a not uncommon
complaint about that particular hub.
I understand the desire for exercise. But I think almost everyone
prefers to get their exercise while moving farther or faster, not by
slogging along slowly. If that were acceptable, we'd all be riding
solid tires.

Odd symptom and no logical reason for it IMHO.
The S-5 gearbox (went through several variants) is basically an AW
three speed design with dual sun gears. With no left side change, it's
a three speed (+26.6% high, direct drive, -21.1% low).
When the left side is changed, the sun gear clutch slides over to the
other gear set, giving -33.3% super low, direct drive and +50% high.
The gear sizes being different from an AW (-25% low, direct drive,
+33% high), the five model notably gives a faster high gear but not a
lower low gear.
Since everything is in the same oil bath* and rolling on the same
bearing adjustment*, overall efficiency should vary only in the
relative losses of gear diameter which is a small difference.
* can be correct or deficient

edit: 'not a much lower low gear'

It was probably about 1984 or so, meaning memory is dim. I was asked to
fix it by a dear friend who lived far away and brought it here on a
visit. The complaint wasn't inefficiency; it was that the bike was balky
responding to the left shifter. I never had time to, say, open the hub
gear. I just played around with cable adjustments.

I thought it might have been John Allen or John Schubert who described
it as an inefficient device, but I don't recall any explanation. If the
output of one planetary stage became the input of the next, the losses
would sort of compound, but it seems odd that would be detectable while
riding. I'd guess maybe 95% efficiency for each stage, so ~90% overall.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

2025-03-02 20:16:19 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Post by Frank Krygowski
IIRC, hydrostatic transmissions are standard features
on zero turn
mowers. But as you noted, the mechanical efficiency is
lousy. That's not
a concern if you have a big enough engine and low
enough use hours. It's
a huge concern for a cyclist.

True, but the huge concern is mostly for racing. If
you're using the
bicycle as a moving exercise machine, the added weight
and increased
friction might even be considered beneficial. It's
like the weights
on barbells where light weight is not a concern. For
competitive
fixie racing, maybe the governing organization should
specify a
minimum allowable bicycle weight, which might inspire
technical
innovation instead of shaving grams off the bicycle
weight.

I think that level of inefficiency would be a concern of
most cyclists, and very few actually race. It would take
a lot of fun out of riding.
I once worked on a bicycle belonging to a friend that
had a quite rare (at least, at the time) 5 speed
Sturmey- Archer geared hub. IIRC, there were two shift
cables, one going to each side. Anyway, as I remember
when shifted to its lowest gear it seemed extremely
sluggish. Unlike the equivalent low gear on a derailleur
bike, it really didn't seem much easier going uphill in
that gear. Instead it just seemed slower. And as I
recall, that was a not uncommon complaint about that
particular hub.
I understand the desire for exercise. But I think almost
everyone prefers to get their exercise while moving
farther or faster, not by slogging along slowly. If that
were acceptable, we'd all be riding solid tires.

Odd symptom and no logical reason for it IMHO.
The S-5 gearbox (went through several variants) is
basically an AW three speed design with dual sun gears.
With no left side change, it's a three speed (+26.6%
high, direct drive, -21.1% low).
When the left side is changed, the sun gear clutch slides
over to the other gear set, giving -33.3% super low,
direct drive and +50% high.
The gear sizes being different from an AW (-25% low,
direct drive, +33% high), the five model notably gives a
faster high gear but not a lower low gear.
Since everything is in the same oil bath* and rolling on
the same bearing adjustment*, overall efficiency should
vary only in the relative losses of gear diameter which
is a small difference.
* can be correct or deficient

edit: 'not a much lower low gear'

It was probably about 1984 or so, meaning memory is dim. I
was asked to fix it by a dear friend who lived far away and
brought it here on a visit. The complaint wasn't
inefficiency; it was that the bike was balky responding to
the left shifter. I never had time to, say, open the hub
gear. I just played around with cable adjustments.
I thought it might have been John Allen or John Schubert who
described it as an inefficient device, but I don't recall
any explanation. If the output of one planetary stage became
the input of the next, the losses would sort of compound,
but it seems odd that would be detectable while riding. I'd
guess maybe 95% efficiency for each stage, so ~90% overall.

As with index derailleur systems, being 'sorta halfway' into
a gear counts as a failure. The left side adjustment needs
to be fully engaged or fully released and adjustment errors
are common.

It's a pair of planetary gear sets (see drawing linked
above) in either one set or the other, not one driving
through the other.

Yes, planetary gearing is less efficient than derailleur (or
fixed) chain drive as it has both chain losses and also gear
losses.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-02 22:31:00 UTC

It's a pair of planetary gear sets (see drawing linked above) in either
one set or the other, not one driving through the other.

Drawing linked where?

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

2025-03-02 22:38:09 UTC

Post by AMuzi
It's a pair of planetary gear sets (see drawing linked
above) in either one set or the other, not one driving
through the other.

Drawing linked where?

d'oh. Sorry

Loading Image...

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Zen Cycle

2025-03-03 16:09:15 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

The UCI weight limit of 6.8 Kg applies to all types of bikes, track
bikes (aka fixies) included

--
Add xx to reply

Jeff Liebermann

2025-03-03 19:07:52 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

The UCI weight limit of 6.8 Kg applies to all types of bikes, track
bikes (aka fixies) included

I assume that applies only to UCI sanctioned bicycle races.
Oddly, I haven't seen any bicycle-like exercise machines being sold on
the basis of them being light weight. Probably the same for moving
bicycle-like exercise machines (i.e. trainers).

Note: The discussion was initially about adapting fixie technology to
a tricycle (Catrike). Andrew commented:

"While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear."

I then provided a possible solution using hydraulics and mentioned
that weight would be "a huge concern, especially in racing". From
that point on, the comments assumed that such a hydraulic drive train
would be used on racing bicycles and that it would not be a good idea
because if would be unsuitable for racing. It might be best if we
simply not consider racing to be a suitable use for a hydraulic fixie
bicycle.

--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

AMuzi

2025-03-03 19:27:05 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

The UCI weight limit of 6.8 Kg applies to all types of bikes, track
bikes (aka fixies) included

I assume that applies only to UCI sanctioned bicycle races.
Oddly, I haven't seen any bicycle-like exercise machines being sold on
the basis of them being light weight. Probably the same for moving
bicycle-like exercise machines (i.e. trainers).
Note: The discussion was initially about adapting fixie technology to
"While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear."
I then provided a possible solution using hydraulics and mentioned
that weight would be "a huge concern, especially in racing". From
that point on, the comments assumed that such a hydraulic drive train
would be used on racing bicycles and that it would not be a good idea
because if would be unsuitable for racing. It might be best if we
simply not consider racing to be a suitable use for a hydraulic fixie
bicycle.

Much agreed on that last point.

I still think, especially regarding hydraulic drive,
"...there's no practical straightforward way to make a
Catrike fixed gear."

Possible? Sure.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Zen Cycle

2025-03-03 22:24:47 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

The UCI weight limit of 6.8 Kg applies to all types of bikes, track
bikes (aka fixies) included

I assume that applies only to UCI sanctioned bicycle races.

Specifically for UCI races, yes, but the vast majority of national
sanctioning bodies follow UCI rules even in races that aren't UCI
sanctioned. In the US, the sanctioning body is USACycling (USAC) If a
race is however a UCI race, it must follow UCI rules and UCI rules will
take precedence even if the race is being administered by USAC.

For non-UCI races sanctioned by USAC, there is no weight limit for any
kind of bike. In fact the actual equipment requirements for regular
bicycle types are surprisingly sparse, only covering just over two pages.

https://assets.usacycling.org/prod/documents/USACycling_RuleBook_7_2024.pdf

Pages 28 - 31

I have seen situations where someone raises an issue referring to UCI
rules, and the answer from the official is "this isn't a UCI race".

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Oddly, I haven't seen any bicycle-like exercise machines being sold on
the basis of them being light weight. Probably the same for moving
bicycle-like exercise machines (i.e. trainers).
Note: The discussion was initially about adapting fixie technology to
"While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear."
I then provided a possible solution using hydraulics and mentioned
that weight would be "a huge concern, especially in racing". From
that point on, the comments assumed that such a hydraulic drive train
would be used on racing bicycles and that it would not be a good idea
because if would be unsuitable for racing. It might be best if we
simply not consider racing to be a suitable use for a hydraulic fixie
bicycle.

I probably should have clarified, the 6.8 Kg weight limit for UCI is a
_minimum_ weight. If one felt the need to ride a 30 pound walmart bike
in a UCI race, there wouldn't be any rule against it as long as all the
other mechanical requirements are met.

--
Add xx to reply

Roger Merriman

2025-03-04 00:47:45 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

The UCI weight limit of 6.8 Kg applies to all types of bikes, track
bikes (aka fixies) included

I assume that applies only to UCI sanctioned bicycle races.

Specifically for UCI races, yes, but the vast majority of national
sanctioning bodies follow UCI rules even in races that aren't UCI
sanctioned. In the US, the sanctioning body is USACycling (USAC) If a
race is however a UCI race, it must follow UCI rules and UCI rules will
take precedence even if the race is being administered by USAC.
For non-UCI races sanctioned by USAC, there is no weight limit for any
kind of bike. In fact the actual equipment requirements for regular
bicycle types are surprisingly sparse, only covering just over two pages.
https://assets.usacycling.org/prod/documents/USACycling_RuleBook_7_2024.pdf
Pages 28 - 31

Uk hill climb competition is definitely non UCI with bikes being few KG
lighter 6ish they do now require helmets and lights though they just have
to exist, the lights at least! And do still get some very weight focused
bits of kit, ie ridiculous light disk rotas etc that like the bling rim
brakes previously worked but not well but where light and reassuring
expensive and well fun bits of kit.

Post by Zen Cycle
I have seen situations where someone raises an issue referring to UCI
rules, and the answer from the official is "this isn't a UCI race".

Roger Merriman

Zen Cycle

2025-03-04 13:49:27 UTC

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 13:55:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I thought about your comment this morning.
While almost everything humans can imagine is possible when
time and money have no value, there's no practical
straightforward way to make a Catrike fixed gear.

The UCI weight limit of 6.8 Kg applies to all types of bikes, track
bikes (aka fixies) included

I assume that applies only to UCI sanctioned bicycle races.

Specifically for UCI races, yes, but the vast majority of national
sanctioning bodies follow UCI rules even in races that aren't UCI
sanctioned. In the US, the sanctioning body is USACycling (USAC) If a
race is however a UCI race, it must follow UCI rules and UCI rules will
take precedence even if the race is being administered by USAC.
For non-UCI races sanctioned by USAC, there is no weight limit for any
kind of bike. In fact the actual equipment requirements for regular
bicycle types are surprisingly sparse, only covering just over two pages.
https://assets.usacycling.org/prod/documents/USACycling_RuleBook_7_2024.pdf
Pages 28 - 31

And similarly here in the northeast US we have the BUMPS series.

https://bumpshillclimb.com/

There is no weight limit but the bike must be "road legal".

Post by Zen Cycle
I have seen situations where someone raises an issue referring to UCI
rules, and the answer from the official is "this isn't a UCI race".

Roger Merriman

--
Add xx to reply

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 02:48:01 UTC

Post by AMuzi
Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control. This may be
perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a problem. (then
again I have never had a pedal strike on mine over decades)

I'd love to try a fixie, but have not had the opportunity. My kid has.
She rode one on a velodrome years back.

Andrew, what sort of pedals do you use with that bike?

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

2025-03-01 03:02:04 UTC

Post by AMuzi
Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control.
This may be perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on
mine over decades)

I'd love to try a fixie, but have not had the opportunity.
My kid has. She rode one on a velodrome years back.
Andrew, what sort of pedals do you use with that bike?

Lyotard 460D.

I wore out three pairs of #23. These fit shoes with rubber
overshoes better and don't have that vulnerable top
rivet/stamping holding everything in place until it wears
through and the pedal self destructs.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 03:11:46 UTC

I'd love to try a fixie, but have not had the opportunity. My kid has.
She rode one on a velodrome years back.
Andrew, what sort of pedals do you use with that bike?

Lyotard 460D.
I wore out three pairs of #23. These fit shoes with rubber overshoes
better and don't have that vulnerable top rivet/stamping holding
everything in place until it wears through and the pedal self destructs.

Toe clips and straps?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

2025-03-01 13:20:15 UTC

I'd love to try a fixie, but have not had the opportunity. My kid has.
She rode one on a velodrome years back.
Andrew, what sort of pedals do you use with that bike?

Lyotard 460D.
I wore out three pairs of #23. These fit shoes with rubber overshoes
better and don't have that vulnerable top rivet/stamping holding
everything in place until it wears through and the pedal self destructs.

Toe clips and straps?

I’d assume so, it’s an old style pedal so wouldn’t offer much security used
as flat pedal.

I’d suggest that fixed in an urban/suburban setting is quite a different
thing to a velodrome ie racing vs riding for entertainment or utility.

It’s not particularly difficult or expensive to get a fixed bike,
potentially you have suitable frame at home? And worth a bit of curiosity.

I personally went for MTB flats though cheaper plastic resin DMR as you
don’t need the pinned in grip like on a MTB!

The resins V6 aren’t rebuildable like the V8 (which is the original metal
version) or the V12 so when the bearing go they toast, though seem to last
many years and thousands of miles so considering the cost not particularly
a concern.

The V12’s on the Gravel/MTB have lost paint and have signs of impacts but
never had body fail? Like Andrew’s pedals though there is significantly
more mass in the DMR pedals.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 17:32:29 UTC

Post by Roger Merriman
It’s not particularly difficult or expensive to get a fixed bike,
potentially you have suitable frame at home? And worth a bit of curiosity.

My around-town 3 speed has a Sturmey-Archer AW hub. It would be the best
candidate for fixed gear because of its old style horizontal dropouts. I
briefly wondered if there were some fairly easy and reversible way to
"fix" that hub, but found none.

I suppose I could buy or build a fixed rear wheel. The bike uses old
style 27" rims, and I probably have one in my pile-o-junk. But I'd
prefer to just try someone else's bike before investing the effort.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 19:49:36 UTC

On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 12:32:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Its not particularly difficult or expensive to get a fixed bike,
potentially you have suitable frame at home? And worth a bit of curiosity.

My around-town 3 speed has a Sturmey-Archer AW hub. It would be the best
candidate for fixed gear because of its old style horizontal dropouts. I
briefly wondered if there were some fairly easy and reversible way to
"fix" that hub, but found none.
I suppose I could buy or build a fixed rear wheel. The bike uses old
style 27" rims, and I probably have one in my pile-o-junk. But I'd
prefer to just try someone else's bike before investing the effort.

Too bad that you don't enjoy the challenge of designing and building
things. I haven't totally discarded the challenge of making a fixie
setup for the Catrike. I've got everything I need except for the
wheel, which I can build for maybe $150. I don't really have to change
out the 3sp crank, although I'd disable shifting.

Once I got it working I'd be happy. I doubt I'd be happy riding it.

I'm working hard at talking myself out of it.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 19:50:55 UTC

On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 14:49:36 -0500, Catrike Ryder

Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 12:32:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Its not particularly difficult or expensive to get a fixed bike,
potentially you have suitable frame at home? And worth a bit of curiosity.

My around-town 3 speed has a Sturmey-Archer AW hub. It would be the best
candidate for fixed gear because of its old style horizontal dropouts. I
briefly wondered if there were some fairly easy and reversible way to
"fix" that hub, but found none.
I suppose I could buy or build a fixed rear wheel. The bike uses old
style 27" rims, and I probably have one in my pile-o-junk. But I'd
prefer to just try someone else's bike before investing the effort.

Too bad that you don't enjoy the challenge of designing and building
things. I haven't totally discarded the challenge of making a fixie
setup for the Catrike. I've got everything I need except for the
wheel, which I can build for maybe $150. I don't really have to change
out the 3sp crank, although I'd disable shifting.
Once I got it working I'd be happy. I doubt I'd be happy riding it.
I'm working hard at talking myself out of it.

My wife is helping me with that....

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-03-01 20:46:35 UTC

Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 14:49:36 -0500, Catrike Ryder

Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 12:32:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Post by Roger Merriman
It’s not particularly difficult or expensive to get a fixed bike,
potentially you have suitable frame at home? And worth a bit of curiosity.

My around-town 3 speed has a Sturmey-Archer AW hub. It would be the best
candidate for fixed gear because of its old style horizontal dropouts. I
briefly wondered if there were some fairly easy and reversible way to
"fix" that hub, but found none.
I suppose I could buy or build a fixed rear wheel. The bike uses old
style 27" rims, and I probably have one in my pile-o-junk. But I'd
prefer to just try someone else's bike before investing the effort.

Too bad that you don't enjoy the challenge of designing and building
things. I haven't totally discarded the challenge of making a fixie
setup for the Catrike. I've got everything I need except for the
wheel, which I can build for maybe $150. I don't really have to change
out the 3sp crank, although I'd disable shifting.
Once I got it working I'd be happy. I doubt I'd be happy riding it.
I'm working hard at talking myself out of it.

My wife is helping me with that....
--
C'est bon
Soloman

The phrase that pays is, "Yes, dear."

It should be voiced at every opportunity, without regard to
one's actual beliefs or actions.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 21:04:03 UTC

Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sat, 01 Mar 2025 14:49:36 -0500, Catrike Ryder

Post by Catrike Ryder
On Sat, 1 Mar 2025 12:32:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski

Its not particularly difficult or expensive to get a fixed bike,
potentially you have suitable frame at home? And worth a bit of curiosity.

My around-town 3 speed has a Sturmey-Archer AW hub. It would be the best
candidate for fixed gear because of its old style horizontal dropouts. I
briefly wondered if there were some fairly easy and reversible way to
"fix" that hub, but found none.
I suppose I could buy or build a fixed rear wheel. The bike uses old
style 27" rims, and I probably have one in my pile-o-junk. But I'd
prefer to just try someone else's bike before investing the effort.

Too bad that you don't enjoy the challenge of designing and building
things. I haven't totally discarded the challenge of making a fixie
setup for the Catrike. I've got everything I need except for the
wheel, which I can build for maybe $150. I don't really have to change
out the 3sp crank, although I'd disable shifting.
Once I got it working I'd be happy. I doubt I'd be happy riding it.
I'm working hard at talking myself out of it.

My wife is helping me with that....
--
C'est bon
Soloman

The phrase that pays is, "Yes, dear."
It should be voiced at every opportunity, without regard to
one's actual beliefs or actions.

She has other things for me to do, and my bicycling projects are not
high on her list. Truth is I already have more projects than I can
handle

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-03-01 14:08:42 UTC

Post by AMuzi
Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control.
This may be perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on
mine over decades)

I'd love to try a fixie, but have not had the
opportunity. My kid has. She rode one on a velodrome
years back.
Andrew, what sort of pedals do you use with that bike?

Lyotard 460D.
I wore out three pairs of #23. These fit shoes with
rubber overshoes better and don't have that vulnerable top
rivet/stamping holding everything in place until it wears
through and the pedal self destructs.

Toe clips and straps?

Of course. Quite comfortable in leather shoes.

People who wear sneakers with tread do find toeclips
difficult, both with 'hot spots' and also snagging on
release. Smooth sole leather shoes are not all that
different from cycling shoes of my youth, sans cleats.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 17:27:16 UTC

Post by AMuzi
Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control. This may be
perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a problem.
(then again I have never had a pedal strike on mine over decades)

I'd love to try a fixie, but have not had the opportunity. My kid
has. She rode one on a velodrome years back.
Andrew, what sort of pedals do you use with that bike?

Lyotard 460D.
I wore out three pairs of #23. These fit shoes with rubber overshoes
better and don't have that vulnerable top rivet/stamping holding
everything in place until it wears through and the pedal self destructs.

Toe clips and straps?

Of course. Quite comfortable in leather shoes.
People who wear sneakers with tread do find toeclips difficult, both
with 'hot spots' and also snagging on release. Smooth sole leather shoes
are not all that different from cycling shoes of my youth, sans cleats.

Captain Dan Henry was a well known and highly accomplished bicycle
tourist in the 1960s through 1980s at least. I attended some of his
workshops and demonstrations in those days.

His preferred touring footwear was a pair of standard men's dress shoes
with leather soles. He carefully sawed a shallow slot in the sole to
align with the back edge of his pedal, to give some location security.

Of course, "clipless" weren't available then. And IIRC, he didn't use
toe clips and straps. But he didn't ride fixed gear. I assume clipless
would be very difficult without some attachment to the pedal.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 09:02:43 UTC

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 21:48:01 -0500, Frank Krygowski

I'd love to try a fixie, but have not had the opportunity. My kid has.
She rode one on a velodrome years back.
Andrew, what sort of pedals do you use with that bike?

You've not had the opportunity? What kind of an opportunity do you
need to build a fixie wheel?

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Roger Merriman

2025-03-01 11:27:08 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions
like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control. This
may be perceptual.

In theory it would offer slightly more probability of staying upright on
ice, as it forces one to not change stuff, ie stop peddling or so on, and
change on ice doesn’t end well, two of my gravel folks hit the deck few
weeks back as they saw my rear wheel move on the ice, and panic braked.

For myself where I adjust my position being a old MTBer at heart it’s
something of hinderance. And indeed it’s even more of niche on MTB’s for
various reasons, SS MTB are much more common which suggests I’m not alone
in feeling it hinders ones movement and control of weighing the bike which
is one of the fundamentals of off road cycling.

As aside Roadies on Gravel bikes are easy to spot as they are so fixed in
position.

Post by AMuzi
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on mine
over decades)

On road yes it’s not a non issue but it’s certainly not a big issue, take a
slightly wider line and so on, off road do scrape pedals on stuff regularly
but that’s kind what you get for riding off road, same reason my shoes have
a armoured toe box.

Roger Merriman

zen cycle

2025-03-01 13:45:48 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for
conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control. This may be
perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a problem. (then
again I have never had a pedal strike on mine over decades)

It's all a matter of Skills, Experience, and Testicular Fortitude (SETF).

Safer.....I don't think so, especially if riding in areas where panic
stops may be necessary. You can stop a lot faster and with more control
with brakes than you can by just back pedaling a fixed-gear.

More control imo is a matter of SETF and not related to the machine
being ridden to any great extent, panic braking issues notwithstanding.

Fixed-gear machines have a few notable challenges that free-wheel bikes
don't:
Road hazards - A free-wheel is easy to bunny hop over stuff, a
fixed-gear, notsomuch, for the simple reason that as long as the bike is
moving your legs have to be moving meaning you have to be able to lift
the bike while your legs are moving. Of course it can be done, but it's
very challenging and takes a great deal of coordination. I've seen it
done, I can't do. I've had the experience of catching a frost heave on a
downhill while spinning well over 100 rpm. The first instinct when your
bike leaves the ground is to stop pedaling - Do that on a fixed gear and
the bike will land at whatever speed you were traveling with your legs
not moving. It never took me down, but I've seen it happen.

Downhills -
"let me tell you brother
it doesn't mean a thing
if you don't have
the ability to spin"*.
Spinning your legs at cadences over 130 take a bit of practice. If you
don't have brakes installed you can leg brake, but that too is a
challenge at higher cadences. This leads back to the stability and
control issue. Inexperienced riders will start bouncing in the saddle
since they don't have the smooth pedal stroke. Picture this: A
fixed-gear on a steep downhill, the rider pedaling so fast the rear
wheel isn't maintaining contact with the road, the road has a turn which
the rider has never even though about on his road bike. No, it wasn't me.

Corners - You _MUST_ pedal though corners. Lean too much and you strike
a pedal, the rear wheel leaves the ground and you go down (not
necessarily, but likely). Back pedal to scrub off speed and you risk
breaking traction, you go down (no only likely, but necessarily).

I've ridden a fixed gear consistently for almost 40 years now as my
cycling mentors were old school guys who preached it as an off season
training tool. I've done 3- 4 hour sessions on the road, commuted, done
a smattering of track racing, and I do the local club TT a couple of
times a year on it. A number of years ago a local shop was doing matched
spring roller races I competed in every week for a few years(if you
couldn't spin 170 you weren't shit).

I love the bike. I finally bought a used track bike rather than use the
rentals. My goal this year is to use the track bike on the Major Taylor
Hill Climb
https://www.majortaylorassociation.org/events/georgestreet24.shtml.

AMuzi

2025-03-01 14:27:51 UTC

Post by zen cycle

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 15:36:28 -0600, AMuzi

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:31:08 -0600, AMuzi

Post by Frank Krygowski
Sorry to hear that. I was riding over lumpy wet ice
in a gravel parking
lot yesterday. I was very conscious that falls can
now have much worse
consequences than they once did.
But I think it's still important to keep giving
ourselves reasonable
challenges, to maintain skill and agility.

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt
for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher
performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would
make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really
fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding
your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without
any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control.
This may be perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on
mine over decades)

It's all a matter of Skills, Experience, and Testicular
Fortitude (SETF).
Safer.....I don't think so, especially if riding in areas
where panic stops may be necessary. You can stop a lot
faster and with more control with brakes than you can by
just back pedaling a fixed-gear.
More control imo is a matter of SETF and not related to the
machine being ridden to any great extent, panic braking
issues notwithstanding.
Fixed-gear machines have a few notable challenges that free-
    Road hazards - A free-wheel is easy to bunny hop over
stuff, a fixed-gear, notsomuch, for the simple reason that
as long as the bike is moving your legs have to be moving
meaning you have to be able to lift the bike while your legs
are moving. Of course it can be done, but it's very
challenging and takes a great deal of coordination. I've
seen it done, I can't do. I've had the experience of
catching a frost heave on a downhill while spinning well
over 100 rpm. The first instinct when your bike leaves the
ground is to stop pedaling - Do that on a fixed gear and the
bike will land at whatever speed you were traveling with
your legs not moving. It never took me down, but I've seen
it happen.
    Downhills -
"let me tell you brother
it doesn't mean a thing
if you don't have
the ability to spin"*.
Spinning your legs at cadences over 130 take a bit of
practice. If you don't have brakes installed you can leg
brake, but that too is a challenge at higher cadences. This
leads back to the stability and control issue. Inexperienced
riders will start bouncing in the saddle since they don't
have the smooth pedal stroke. Picture this: A fixed-gear on
a steep downhill, the rider pedaling so fast the rear wheel
isn't maintaining contact with the road, the road has a turn
which the rider has never even though about on his road
bike. No, it wasn't me.
    Corners - You _MUST_ pedal though corners. Lean too
much and you strike a pedal, the rear wheel leaves the
ground and you go down (not necessarily, but likely). Back
pedal to scrub off speed and you risk breaking traction, you
go down (no only likely, but necessarily).
I've ridden a fixed gear consistently for almost 40 years
now as my cycling mentors were old school guys who preached
it as an off season training tool. I've done 3- 4 hour
sessions on the road, commuted, done a smattering of track
racing, and I do the local club TT a couple of times a year
on it. A number of years ago a local shop was doing matched
spring roller races I competed in every week for a few
years(if you couldn't spin 170 you weren't shit).
I love the bike. I finally bought a used track bike rather
than use the rentals. My goal this year is to use the track
bike on the Major Taylor Hill Climb https://
www.majortaylorassociation.org/events/georgestreet24.shtml.
http://youtu.be/bZdoKxKgHZs

SETF?

https://www.acronymfinder.com/SETF.html

To be clear, I do have a front caliper and I strongly
admonish other fixed gear riders to use one.

+1 on bunny hops at speed. Virtually impossible on fixed but
common, even trivial, on a road bike.

er, or anything which coasts:

And my hat's off to you regarding rpm. I generally spin
highish but 170 on these legs is not going to happen!

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-01 14:31:18 UTC

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 15:36:28 -0600, AMuzi

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:31:08 -0600, AMuzi

Post by Frank Krygowski
Sorry to hear that. I was riding over lumpy wet ice
in a gravel parking
lot yesterday. I was very conscious that falls can
now have much worse
consequences than they once did.
But I think it's still important to keep giving
ourselves reasonable
challenges, to maintain skill and agility.

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt
for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher
performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would
make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really
fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding
your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without
any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control.
This may be perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on
mine over decades)

It's all a matter of Skills, Experience, and Testicular
Fortitude (SETF).
Safer.....I don't think so, especially if riding in areas
where panic stops may be necessary. You can stop a lot
faster and with more control with brakes than you can by
just back pedaling a fixed-gear.
More control imo is a matter of SETF and not related to the
machine being ridden to any great extent, panic braking
issues notwithstanding.
Fixed-gear machines have a few notable challenges that free-
    Road hazards - A free-wheel is easy to bunny hop over
stuff, a fixed-gear, notsomuch, for the simple reason that
as long as the bike is moving your legs have to be moving
meaning you have to be able to lift the bike while your legs
are moving. Of course it can be done, but it's very
challenging and takes a great deal of coordination. I've
seen it done, I can't do. I've had the experience of
catching a frost heave on a downhill while spinning well
over 100 rpm. The first instinct when your bike leaves the
ground is to stop pedaling - Do that on a fixed gear and the
bike will land at whatever speed you were traveling with
your legs not moving. It never took me down, but I've seen
it happen.
    Downhills -
"let me tell you brother
it doesn't mean a thing
if you don't have
the ability to spin"*.
Spinning your legs at cadences over 130 take a bit of
practice. If you don't have brakes installed you can leg
brake, but that too is a challenge at higher cadences. This
leads back to the stability and control issue. Inexperienced
riders will start bouncing in the saddle since they don't
have the smooth pedal stroke. Picture this: A fixed-gear on
a steep downhill, the rider pedaling so fast the rear wheel
isn't maintaining contact with the road, the road has a turn
which the rider has never even though about on his road
bike. No, it wasn't me.
    Corners - You _MUST_ pedal though corners. Lean too
much and you strike a pedal, the rear wheel leaves the
ground and you go down (not necessarily, but likely). Back
pedal to scrub off speed and you risk breaking traction, you
go down (no only likely, but necessarily).
I've ridden a fixed gear consistently for almost 40 years
now as my cycling mentors were old school guys who preached
it as an off season training tool. I've done 3- 4 hour
sessions on the road, commuted, done a smattering of track
racing, and I do the local club TT a couple of times a year
on it. A number of years ago a local shop was doing matched
spring roller races I competed in every week for a few
years(if you couldn't spin 170 you weren't shit).
I love the bike. I finally bought a used track bike rather
than use the rentals. My goal this year is to use the track
bike on the Major Taylor Hill Climb https://
www.majortaylorassociation.org/events/georgestreet24.shtml.
http://youtu.be/bZdoKxKgHZs

SETF?
https://www.acronymfinder.com/SETF.html
To be clear, I do have a front caliper and I strongly
admonish other fixed gear riders to use one.
+1 on bunny hops at speed. Virtually impossible on fixed but
common, even trivial, on a road bike.
http://youtu.be/cI2gyx2sU90
And my hat's off to you regarding rpm. I generally spin
highish but 170 on these legs is not going to happen!

My hats off to both of you.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 17:45:53 UTC

SETF?

As Zen said, "It's all a matter of Skills, Experience, and Testicular
Fortitude (SETF)."

+1 on bunny hops at speed. Virtually impossible on fixed but common,
even trivial, on a road bike.
http://youtu.be/cI2gyx2sU90

I'm puzzled by the video's advice to avoid pulling up on the pedals "as
it's bad technique." I'm pretty sure I do pull up when jumping the bike.
What's bad about it?

And more on that video. In slow motion as they showed, the physics is
pretty obvious. The rider gets his body mass moving upwards, then
essentially pulls the bike up with him. That's where I think I pull up
using the pedals.

What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

2025-03-01 17:53:18 UTC

SETF?

As Zen said, "It's all a matter of Skills, Experience, and Testicular
Fortitude (SETF)."

+1 on bunny hops at speed. Virtually impossible on fixed but common,
even trivial, on a road bike.
http://youtu.be/cI2gyx2sU90

I'm puzzled by the video's advice to avoid pulling up on the pedals "as
it's bad technique." I'm pretty sure I do pull up when jumping the bike.
What's bad about it?
And more on that video. In slow motion as they showed, the physics is
pretty obvious. The rider gets his body mass moving upwards, then
essentially pulls the bike up with him. That's where I think I pull up
using the pedals.

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 18:40:09 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
I'm puzzled by the video's advice to avoid pulling up on the pedals "as
it's bad technique." I'm pretty sure I do pull up when jumping the bike.
What's bad about it?
And more on that video. In slow motion as they showed, the physics is
pretty obvious. The rider gets his body mass moving upwards, then
essentially pulls the bike up with him. That's where I think I pull up
using the pedals.

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

I'm not sure I understand your phrasing. On my road bikes, I "spring up"
- that is, jump my body upward. I then pull upwards with both hands and
feet. Since I use toe clips instead of clipless, I don't think I've ever
unclipped while doing that.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

As with the skateboard "ollie" (linked in another post) getting the
rider's mass up high is easy and obvious, by jumping. Making the bike or
skateboard levitate is what's tricky.

I think the physics goes this way: You lift the front of the machine,
raising the machine's center of mass. On the bike, that's by pulling up
on the handlebars. On the board, that's by kicking down on the tail.

Once the machine center of mass is elevated, then rotate the machine
about its center of mass. That's by pushing down on the handlebars or
by kicking down on the nose of the board.

That rotational action about the center of mass is what causes the rear
wheel(s) to lift into the air.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

2025-03-02 12:17:02 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

I’d refer you to the Don who is a ex downhill racer, and rather technical,
to explain why!

But certainly all of the sane advice for bunny hops are not to being
pulling up with your feet, it can be done but it’s poor technique and will
limit how much you can do.

Post by Frank Krygowski
As with the skateboard "ollie" (linked in another post) getting the
rider's mass up high is easy and obvious, by jumping. Making the bike or
skateboard levitate is what's tricky.
I think the physics goes this way: You lift the front of the machine,
raising the machine's center of mass. On the bike, that's by pulling up
on the handlebars. On the board, that's by kicking down on the tail.
Once the machine center of mass is elevated, then rotate the machine
about its center of mass. That's by pushing down on the handlebars or
by kicking down on the nose of the board.
That rotational action about the center of mass is what causes the rear
wheel(s) to lift into the air.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.

And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-02 16:38:36 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

I’d refer you to the Don who is a ex downhill racer, and rather technical,
to explain why!
http://youtu.be/F7LO1qnm0Xs
But certainly all of the sane advice for bunny hops are not to being
pulling up with your feet, it can be done but it’s poor technique and will
limit how much you can do.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.

And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."

I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.

I submit Peter Sagan at about 0:15 in this video:

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-02 16:42:42 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.
And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."
I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

There was one time I jumped to clear a little dog that ran out directly
in front of me. He was maybe one foot high at the shoulder. I cleared
him with my front wheel, but broke his shoulder (I think) with my back
wheel.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-02 17:16:50 UTC

On Sun, 2 Mar 2025 11:42:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski

In theory its better to have the bike rider spring up, than being
pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so arent pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

Id refer you to the Don who is a ex downhill racer, and rather
technical,
to explain why!
http://youtu.be/F7LO1qnm0Xs
But certainly all of the sane advice for bunny hops are not to being
pulling up with your feet, it can be done but its poor technique and
will
limit how much you can do.

You shouldnt be lifting either the bar or pedals, its about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.
And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."
I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

Well, don't beat yourself up about. Everyone has failed as something.
I, for instance totally failed at golf. I could very seldom hit a
driver without dropping my shoulder as I did with a baseball bat. The
result, of course, was a terrible slice into the woods or at the guys
on a nearby hole.

--
C'est bon
Soloman

Roger Merriman

2025-03-03 00:55:48 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.
And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."
I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.

Kinda depends on your aim, if one wants to learn how to bunny hop for what
ever reason, it’s a better form and more reliable granted needs practice,
your method is cheap and dirty hence folks use it, but it inherently has
limits.

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast but looks
like he compresses and then springs up, he’s also someone with some MTB
background and likes to throw the bike about.

Ie that doesn’t look like just a cheap and dirty pull on the bars.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-03 01:35:37 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.
And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."
I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

Post by Roger Merriman
... but looks
like he compresses and then springs up, he’s also someone with some MTB
background and likes to throw the bike about.
Ie that doesn’t look like just a cheap and dirty pull on the bars.

Reread above, please. What I said is still there:

"On my road bikes, I "spring up"- that is, jump my body upward. I then
pull upwards with both hands and feet. Since I use toe clips instead of
clipless, I don't think I've ever unclipped while doing that."

If I want to jump a bit higher and if I have time, I think I do
"compress" a bit before I spring up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

2025-03-03 15:23:50 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.
And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."
I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

"On my road bikes, I "spring up"- that is, jump my body upward. I then
pull upwards with both hands and feet. Since I use toe clips instead of
clipless, I don't think I've ever unclipped while doing that."
If I want to jump a bit higher and if I have time, I think I do
"compress" a bit before I spring up.

He clearly does compress ie not at all clear that he’s pulling up much if
anything, but it’ much like the Don’s advice movement and timing that is
doing this.

Which is different to what you’re describing.

I’d also suggest that it’s a bold move to compare to Sagan who while like
most isn’t perfect he definitely fluffed up the XC Olympics few years back,
by being too aggressive aka didn’t nurse the tyres over the technical bits,
but he’s definitely is rather God tier in terms of bike handling.

Roger Merriman

Zen Cycle

2025-03-03 16:59:38 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.
And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."
I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

I'm not so sure about that, but it's really hard to tell without a good
slo-mo breakdown. It looks to me like he might have actually pitched the
front of the bike down before he crossed the median, but my
bunny-hopping skills are notoriously bad.

Post by Roger Merriman
I’d also suggest that it’s a bold move to compare to Sagan who while like
most isn’t perfect he definitely fluffed up the XC Olympics few years back,
by being too aggressive aka didn’t nurse the tyres over the technical bits,
but he’s definitely is rather God tier in terms of bike handling.

Which brings this to mind

For me though, one of the more impressive displays was Andre Tchmil
winning the '94 Paris Roubaix. He won in a solo breakaway, at one point
he approached a small-ish roundabout where he simple rode straight
across it. It was so completely effortless and smooth - mind you, this
was over 5 hours into the race in off/on rainy conditions after fighting
the dozens of kilometers of mud covered cobbles.

I dug around a bit and found an old video.

The stunt is at 1:08:25. Even Phil Ligget was impressed with the move.
FWIW - it's worth watching a few bits earlier in the video where some
cobbled sections are covered in 2 inches of mud.

--
Add xx to reply

Roger Merriman

2025-03-04 00:39:25 UTC

In theory it’s better to have the bike rider spring up, than being pulled
up by foot attachments also slight risk of unclipping.

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

Lot of folks who jump is a focus do run flats so aren’t pulling up.

I run flat pedals on my mountain bike and my about-town 3 speed. Yes, I
can jump them, but not as high. On the other bikes, I think the toe
clips help.

You shouldn’t be lifting either the bar or pedals, it’s about as with all
MTBing weight positions and movement and timing ie push hips back so your
arse is almost brushing the rear tyres.
And the front will come up, scooping the weight forward to drop the front
down and the rear up.

I can accept that the extreme body motions he's describing are needed to
get more than, say, a foot into the air. They may or may not have helped
the guys who's crashes he shows from 5:34 - 5:45 in the video.
And as your man says at 5:49 "... well, it does work, it's not as good."
I'm not trying for "big air," as they say. I'm on a road bike, and my
objective has been to clear big potholes, railroad tracks or speed
bumps. For that I don't think there's a problem with moving one's body
straight up then pulling the bike up using handlebars and pedal
attachments.

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

It’s smooth and well skilled, as with the reply to Frank I just can’t see a
man of his talent using such a poor technique when he clearly has the
talent and knowledge, that it’s difficult to see exactly what he’s doing
isn’t particularly surprising.

I also don’t use full bunny hops as well don’t need them, though larger
kerb rolling on the gravel bike is possibly one use case, MTB just roll on
over, and in general I lighten/weight wheels etc to get over stuff than
lifting a wheel over.

Which brings this to mind
http://youtu.be/bM9Eh2uQ7Ek
For me though, one of the more impressive displays was Andre Tchmil
winning the '94 Paris Roubaix. He won in a solo breakaway, at one point
he approached a small-ish roundabout where he simple rode straight
across it. It was so completely effortless and smooth - mind you, this
was over 5 hours into the race in off/on rainy conditions after fighting
the dozens of kilometers of mud covered cobbles.

Done well it’s just ridiculous smooth! Most mortals need to slow and well
hop up/down stuff.

Fortunately not that many people are so talented!

Post by Zen Cycle
I dug around a bit and found an old video.
http://youtu.be/xci1GIwLNoo
The stunt is at 1:08:25. Even Phil Ligget was impressed with the move.
FWIW - it's worth watching a few bits earlier in the video where some
cobbled sections are covered in 2 inches of mud.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-04 01:17:56 UTC

Post by Roger Merriman
It’s smooth and well skilled, as with the reply to Frank I just can’t see a
man of his talent using such a poor technique when he clearly has the
talent and knowledge, that it’s difficult to see exactly what he’s doing
isn’t particularly surprising.

You're dangerously close to a "True Scotsman" fallacy there!

You're saying Sagan can't be doing what I say (despite video evidence)
because _you_ proclaim it to be "poor technique," and someone like Sagan
would not use what _you_ judge to be "poor technique."

I'd say the opposite: The fact that he uses this technique (as shown by
the video) indicates he does not think it's "poor technique."

He's very skilled, and in other videos he shows he can use the other
technique if he wants to. But he thinks this is the right technique for
this situation.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-03 18:25:09 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

He clearly does compress ie not at all clear that he’s pulling up much if
anything...

Really? Let's think about this in terms of physics - of force, mass and
acceleration.

Unlike your mountain biker, Sagan does not use an extreme wheelstand to
raise the center of mass of the bike, allowing later rotation around
that elevated C. of M.

Instead, after Sagan's body rises, the bike rises in pure translation
(as opposed to rotation). Such a motion requires upward force. Without
an upward force, a body can't experience an upward translational
acceleration.

If Sagan is not pulling up, what would make the bike levitate?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

2025-03-04 00:35:15 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

He clearly does compress ie not at all clear that he’s pulling up much if
anything...

You are aware he’s a MTBer as well? Was one before being a roadie and has
gone back to it. Don is using the exaggeration for both demonstrating and
to perform larger bunny hops.

Post by Frank Krygowski
Instead, after Sagan's body rises, the bike rises in pure translation
(as opposed to rotation). Such a motion requires upward force. Without
an upward force, a body can't experience an upward translational
acceleration.
If Sagan is not pulling up, what would make the bike levitate?

I strongly suspect that he’d die of shame if he used that cheap and dirty
yank on the bars, like other examples it’s fast and fluid so breaking it
down into its consistency movements is always difficult which is again why
Don did the exaggeration to explain.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-04 01:08:00 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

He clearly does compress ie not at all clear that he’s pulling up much if
anything...

Really? Let's think about this in terms of physics - of force, mass and
acceleration.
Unlike your mountain biker, Sagan does not use an extreme wheelstand to
raise the center of mass of the bike, allowing later rotation around
that elevated C. of M.
Instead, after Sagan's body rises, the bike rises in pure translation
(as opposed to rotation). Such a motion requires upward force. Without
an upward force, a body can't experience an upward translational
acceleration.
If Sagan is not pulling up, what would make the bike levitate?

You're avoiding the physics of the situation. Cheap or expansive, dirty
or clean, fast or slow, no bicycle (or other object) is going to rise
upward in translational motion like that unless there is an upwardly
directed force.

It can get more complicated if, as your mountain bike did, one
introduces rotation into the motion. But Sagan did not, so the physics
remains very basic.

Slow the video to 0.25 speed and watch carefully.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

2025-03-04 09:45:30 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

I’d suggest he probably did more than just pull up, it’s fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

He clearly does compress ie not at all clear that he’s pulling up much if
anything...

Really? Let's think about this in terms of physics - of force, mass and
acceleration.
Unlike your mountain biker, Sagan does not use an extreme wheelstand to
raise the center of mass of the bike, allowing later rotation around
that elevated C. of M.
Instead, after Sagan's body rises, the bike rises in pure translation
(as opposed to rotation). Such a motion requires upward force. Without
an upward force, a body can't experience an upward translational
acceleration.
If Sagan is not pulling up, what would make the bike levitate?

You're avoiding the physics of the situation. Cheap or expansive, dirty
or clean, fast or slow, no bicycle (or other object) is going to rise
upward in translational motion like that unless there is an upwardly
directed force.
It can get more complicated if, as your mountain bike did, one
introduces rotation into the motion. But Sagan did not, so the physics
remains very basic.
Slow the video to 0.25 speed and watch carefully.

I have, he’s using movement, he’s not pulling up but springing up, it’s
quick and fluid but definitely there.

Roger Merriman

Catrike Ryder

2025-03-04 13:41:34 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
http://youtu.be/Viszek1LlpA

Id suggest he probably did more than just pull up, its fast ...

It helps to slow it down to half speed or slower as you view it.

... but looks
like he compresses and then springs up, hes also someone with some MTB
background and likes to throw the bike about.
Ie that doesnt look like just a cheap and dirty pull on the bars.

He clearly does compress ie not at all clear that hes pulling up much if
anything...

Really? Let's think about this in terms of physics - of force, mass and
acceleration.
Unlike your mountain biker, Sagan does not use an extreme wheelstand to
raise the center of mass of the bike, allowing later rotation around
that elevated C. of M.
Instead, after Sagan's body rises, the bike rises in pure translation
(as opposed to rotation). Such a motion requires upward force. Without
an upward force, a body can't experience an upward translational
acceleration.
If Sagan is not pulling up, what would make the bike levitate?

I strongly suspect that hed die of shame if he used that cheap and dirty
yank on the bars, like other examples its fast and fluid so breaking it
down into its consistency movements is always difficult which is again why
Don did the exaggeration to explain.

You're avoiding the physics of the situation. Cheap or expansive, dirty
or clean, fast or slow, no bicycle (or other object) is going to rise
upward in translational motion like that unless there is an upwardly
directed force.
It can get more complicated if, as your mountain bike did, one
introduces rotation into the motion. But Sagan did not, so the physics
remains very basic.
Slow the video to 0.25 speed and watch carefully.

I have, hes using movement, hes not pulling up but springing up, its
quick and fluid but definitely there.
Roger Merriman

Mustn't contradict Krygowski, after all "there are others who have
examined [his] bicycling qualifications, tested [him] and proclaimed
that [he does], indeed, know what [he's] talking about regarding
bicycling."
Frank Krygowski
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/phkWDoYngY0/m/sSpJLrQKvKQJ

--
C'est bon
Soloman

AMuzi

2025-03-01 17:59:43 UTC

Post by AMuzi
SETF?

As Zen said, "It's all a matter of Skills, Experience, and
Testicular Fortitude (SETF)."

Post by AMuzi
+1 on bunny hops at speed. Virtually impossible on fixed
but common, even trivial, on a road bike.
http://youtu.be/cI2gyx2sU90

I'm puzzled by the video's advice to avoid pulling up on the
pedals "as it's bad technique." I'm pretty sure I do pull up
when jumping the bike. What's bad about it?
And more on that video. In slow motion as they showed, the
physics is pretty obvious. The rider gets his body mass
moving upwards, then essentially pulls the bike up with him.
That's where I think I pull up using the pedals.
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with
zero foot attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's
interesting to think about.

How to video, 3 minutes:

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 18:31:31 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with zero foot
attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's interesting to think about.

http://youtu.be/z9j_l3Gq1I0

I was actually thinking about no foot attachement, no hand grab. They
call that jump an "ollie."

https://www.wikihow.com/Ollie

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

2025-03-01 18:40:59 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
What's less obvious, I think, is how a skateboarder with
zero foot attachment can bunny hop a skateboard. It's
interesting to think about.

http://youtu.be/z9j_l3Gq1I0

I was actually thinking about no foot attachement, no hand
grab. They call that jump an "ollie."
https://www.wikihow.com/Ollie

Start with bunnies.

Advanced lesson 4 minutes:

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Roger Merriman

2025-03-01 17:47:35 UTC

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 15:36:28 -0600, AMuzi

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:31:08 -0600, AMuzi

Post by Frank Krygowski
Sorry to hear that. I was riding over lumpy wet ice
in a gravel parking
lot yesterday. I was very conscious that falls can
now have much worse
consequences than they once did.
But I think it's still important to keep giving
ourselves reasonable
challenges, to maintain skill and agility.

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt
for conditions like thqat than Andrew's higher
performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would
make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

I suspect that riding a Catrike on ice would be really
fun.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

+1
Very different from a two-wheeler!

Very diferent indeed. Tell me that you weren't out riding
your fixie
on icy roads. Riding a fixie seems risky enough without
any ice.
--
C'est bon
Soloman

Fixed gear is not any more safe nor unsafe than coasters.
Some (I for one) feel they offer better rider control.
This may be perceptual.
Others note that pedaling through fast turns can be a
problem. (then again I have never had a pedal strike on
mine over decades)

It's all a matter of Skills, Experience, and Testicular
Fortitude (SETF).
Safer.....I don't think so, especially if riding in areas
where panic stops may be necessary. You can stop a lot
faster and with more control with brakes than you can by
just back pedaling a fixed-gear.
More control imo is a matter of SETF and not related to the
machine being ridden to any great extent, panic braking
issues notwithstanding.
Fixed-gear machines have a few notable challenges that free-
    Road hazards - A free-wheel is easy to bunny hop over
stuff, a fixed-gear, notsomuch, for the simple reason that
as long as the bike is moving your legs have to be moving
meaning you have to be able to lift the bike while your legs
are moving. Of course it can be done, but it's very
challenging and takes a great deal of coordination. I've
seen it done, I can't do. I've had the experience of
catching a frost heave on a downhill while spinning well
over 100 rpm. The first instinct when your bike leaves the
ground is to stop pedaling - Do that on a fixed gear and the
bike will land at whatever speed you were traveling with
your legs not moving. It never took me down, but I've seen
it happen.
    Downhills -
"let me tell you brother
it doesn't mean a thing
if you don't have
the ability to spin"*.
Spinning your legs at cadences over 130 take a bit of
practice. If you don't have brakes installed you can leg
brake, but that too is a challenge at higher cadences. This
leads back to the stability and control issue. Inexperienced
riders will start bouncing in the saddle since they don't
have the smooth pedal stroke. Picture this: A fixed-gear on
a steep downhill, the rider pedaling so fast the rear wheel
isn't maintaining contact with the road, the road has a turn
which the rider has never even though about on his road
bike. No, it wasn't me.
    Corners - You _MUST_ pedal though corners. Lean too
much and you strike a pedal, the rear wheel leaves the
ground and you go down (not necessarily, but likely). Back
pedal to scrub off speed and you risk breaking traction, you
go down (no only likely, but necessarily).
I've ridden a fixed gear consistently for almost 40 years
now as my cycling mentors were old school guys who preached
it as an off season training tool. I've done 3- 4 hour
sessions on the road, commuted, done a smattering of track
racing, and I do the local club TT a couple of times a year
on it. A number of years ago a local shop was doing matched
spring roller races I competed in every week for a few
years(if you couldn't spin 170 you weren't shit).
I love the bike. I finally bought a used track bike rather
than use the rentals. My goal this year is to use the track
bike on the Major Taylor Hill Climb https://
www.majortaylorassociation.org/events/georgestreet24.shtml.
http://youtu.be/bZdoKxKgHZs

SETF?
https://www.acronymfinder.com/SETF.html
To be clear, I do have a front caliper and I strongly
admonish other fixed gear riders to use one.

Charlie Alliston the lad who killed a pedestrian few years back, on his
brake less fixie ie only the leg braking, though i suspect that wasn’t
particularly important in that case, though certainly didn’t help his case.

Ie wasn’t the bikes lack of calliper brakes that caused the death but his
riding ie diving through traffic ie taking risks.

I certainly did some laps of Richmond Park just using the leg braking it
was fine.

Post by AMuzi
+1 on bunny hops at speed. Virtually impossible on fixed but
common, even trivial, on a road bike.
http://youtu.be/cI2gyx2sU90
And my hat's off to you regarding rpm. I generally spin
highish but 170 on these legs is not going to happen!

Don’t think I got much faster than 130 ish which was around 30mph for the
Track bike I had. So I’d generally not hold it for long!

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski

2025-03-01 17:54:40 UTC

Post by zen cycle
A free-wheel is easy to bunny hop over stuff, a
fixed-gear, notsomuch, for the simple reason that as long as the bike is
moving your legs have to be moving meaning you have to be able to lift
the bike while your legs are moving. Of course it can be done, but it's
very challenging and takes a great deal of coordination. I've seen it
done, I can't do.

A few years ago I met a young guy riding a fixie when we were visiting
DC. I started a conversation with him when I saw him hop the bike and
skid to a stop. Yes, it looked like it took great coordination. Of
course, he wasn't moving at high speed; probably less than 12 mph.

Post by zen cycle
Spinning your legs at cadences over 130 take a bit of practice.

Indeed! I used to occasionally practice while riding rollers, but I
doubt that I ever exceeded 130. As I understand, riding fixed is the
quickest way of gaining that skill, because the feedback system is
instantaneous.

Post by zen cycle
I've ridden a fixed gear consistently for almost 40 years now as my
cycling mentors were old school guys who preached it as an off season
training tool. I've done 3- 4 hour sessions on the road, commuted, done
a smattering of track racing, and I do the local club TT a couple of
times a year on it. A number of years ago a local shop was doing matched
spring roller races I competed in every week for a few years(if you
couldn't spin 170 you weren't shit).

Impressive!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Roger Merriman

2025-02-28 19:02:20 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions
like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

In my experience seems to tally with that, longer bikes with fatter tyres
and so on, only make a difference on areas with marginal grip not zero grip
or near zero!

I’ve been caught out even off road with ice on a old Tram road which the
ice had at one spot reached sufficient thickness not to crack under my
weight, so I tipped over an cracked my wrist which was seriously painful,
not helped by me riding home on it which really wasn’t wise!

Catstrike bike is probably quite fun on ice, though I’m told that studded
tyres are good on ice.

Never tried it as well it doesn’t get cold enough for frequent ice around
London on the roads, though do get snow and ice to varying degrees, but bar
my experience above ice off road isn’t a problem and the MTB in particular
can just plow though the Snow.

Roger Merriman

zen_cycle

2025-02-28 19:16:58 UTC

Post by Roger Merriman
I’m told that
studded
tyres are good on ice.

I built a set of ice tires - started with a Schwalbe Dirty Dan, then
added #6x1/2" SS sheet metal screws through half the knobs (that's about
200 screws per tire). I can ride _up_ ice flows on those bad boys

--

AMuzi

2025-02-28 21:39:32 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions
like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

In my experience seems to tally with that, longer bikes with fatter tyres
and so on, only make a difference on areas with marginal grip not zero grip
or near zero!
I’ve been caught out even off road with ice on a old Tram road which the
ice had at one spot reached sufficient thickness not to crack under my
weight, so I tipped over an cracked my wrist which was seriously painful,
not helped by me riding home on it which really wasn’t wise!
Catstrike bike is probably quite fun on ice, though I’m told that studded
tyres are good on ice.
Never tried it as well it doesn’t get cold enough for frequent ice around
London on the roads, though do get snow and ice to varying degrees, but bar
my experience above ice off road isn’t a problem and the MTB in particular
can just plow though the Snow.
Roger Merriman

Amen to that.
I couldn't manage mine into the overcoat so I rode back to
work with that sleeve in my teeth. I can't imagine holding a
handebar with a wrist fracture.

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Zen Cycle

2025-02-28 21:43:01 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions
like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

In my experience seems to tally with that, longer bikes with fatter tyres
and so on, only make a difference on areas with marginal grip not zero grip
or near zero!
I’ve been caught out even off road with ice on a old Tram road which the
ice had at one spot reached sufficient thickness not to crack under my
weight, so I tipped over an cracked my wrist which was seriously painful,
not helped by me riding home on it which really wasn’t wise!
Catstrike bike is probably quite fun on ice, though I’m told that studded
tyres are good on ice.
Never tried it as well it doesn’t get cold enough for frequent ice around
London on the roads, though do get snow and ice to varying degrees, but bar
my experience above ice off road isn’t a problem and the MTB in particular
can just plow though the Snow.
Roger Merriman

Amen to that.
I couldn't manage mine into the overcoat so I rode back to work with
that sleeve in my teeth. I can't imagine holding a handebar with a wrist
fracture.

Why do I have an image of Aqualung on a bike in my head?

--
Add xx to reply

AMuzi

2025-02-28 23:35:16 UTC

Post by Frank Krygowski
Sorry to hear that. I was riding over lumpy wet ice in
a gravel parking
lot yesterday. I was very conscious that falls can now
have much worse
consequences than they once did.
But I think it's still important to keep giving
ourselves reasonable
challenges, to maintain skill and agility.

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt
for conditions
like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would
make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

In my experience seems to tally with that, longer bikes
with fatter tyres
and so on, only make a difference on areas with marginal
grip not zero grip
or near zero!
I’ve been caught out even off road with ice on a old Tram
road which the
ice had at one spot reached sufficient thickness not to
crack under my
weight, so I tipped over an cracked my wrist which was
seriously painful,
not helped by me riding home on it which really wasn’t wise!
Catstrike bike is probably quite fun on ice, though I’m
told that studded
tyres are good on ice.
Never tried it as well it doesn’t get cold enough for
frequent ice around
London on the roads, though do get snow and ice to
varying degrees, but bar
my experience above ice off road isn’t a problem and the
MTB in particular
can just plow though the Snow.
Roger Merriman

Amen to that.
I couldn't manage mine into the overcoat so I rode back to
work with that sleeve in my teeth. I can't imagine holding
a handebar with a wrist fracture.

Why do I have an image of Aqualung on a bike in my head?

Aqualung? What?
Few choices at that moment:

Loading Image...

--
Andrew Muzi
***@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Roger Merriman

2025-02-28 22:06:03 UTC

I expect that your old steel touring bike is more apt for conditions
like thqat than Andrew's higher performqance bike.

Wheelbase, tire width, tread or rider position would make no
difference leaning into a turn over ice.

In my experience seems to tally with that, longer bikes with fatter tyres
and so on, only make a difference on areas with marginal grip not zero grip
or near zero!
I’ve been caught out even off road with ice on a old Tram road which the
ice had at one spot reached sufficient thickness not to crack under my
weight, so I tipped over an cracked my wrist which was seriously painful,
not helped by me riding home on it which really wasn’t wise!
Catstrike bike is probably quite fun on ice, though I’m told that studded
tyres are good on ice.
Never tried it as well it doesn’t get cold enough for frequent ice around
London on the roads, though do get snow and ice to varying degrees, but bar
my experience above ice off road isn’t a problem and the MTB in particular
can just plow though the Snow.
Roger Merriman

Amen to that.
I couldn't manage mine into the overcoat so I rode back to
work with that sleeve in my teeth. I can't imagine holding a
handebar with a wrist fracture.

Not one of my better decisions! In totally expected results I fell on it
again coming down the sheer side of the hill on way down to my folks, a
more sensible approach would of been taking the much less steep and
technical old incline and take the lanes home.

I also did nothing about it for few days before admitting defeat and got
given some serious looks by the nurses though they did nicely omit that it
was a few days old so I could get X rays and what not!

I made some poor choices and compounded them though I was still almost
young at that point I guess!

Took quite some time to heal and not feel it on cold days, as is the way
with bones! I still now can feel the fracture line on my skull if it’s a
cold wind.

Roger Merriman

Zen Cycle

2025-02-28 17:01:38 UTC

I found that one icy spot on the crown of the county road while turning
left into the village at the end of my ride yesterday. Just a minor
spill, had a small cut over one eye; Felt like an idiot but no big deal
otherwise.
Woke up today with an achy bruised rib and a big purple shiner.

Yeah, but hows the bike? :)

Seriously though, I hope it isn't affecting your ability to ride.

I know you all have more than a few years on me, but at 62 I'm seeing
how much harder it is to recover from both hard efforts and injuries.

In october I was riding in the local park on trails I know better than
the back of my hand. This past fall was a bit odd in that for some
reason the trees held their leaves a bit longer than usual then dropped
them seeming all at once. This completely obscured some of the trails
such that even these heavily traveled MTB trails hadn't been worn in yet.

I let my confidence get the better of me and took a downhill too fast
for the conditions, wiping out on the leaves and smacking my right knee
hard on a rock under the leaves. The timing on my garmin shows me going
from just over 15 MPH to 0 in one second.

https://www.strava.com/activities/12806360994

4 months later my knee starts to ache if I leave it in a bent position
for too long (just as I would while sitting at a desk for several hours)
and my hip flexor and ITB require daily stretching or I start to get hip
pain. Years ago, I'd probably barely remember crashing.

--
Add xx to reply

cyclintom

2025-02-28 17:18:13 UTC

Sorry to hear that. Be careful since the net won't be the same if you;re healong for any period of time.

Mark J cleary

2025-02-28 19:34:41 UTC