Discussion:
60th Anniversary Schwinn titanium price
(too old to reply)
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-26 23:18:27 UTC
Permalink
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.

I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.

20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?

What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
jbeattie
2021-03-26 23:43:26 UTC
Permalink
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/

-- Jay Beattie.
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-27 00:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
Tom Kunich
2021-03-27 21:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
jbeattie
2021-03-27 22:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
Well, that's wrong. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm
https://tinyurl.com/443a4p97

You'll particularly like this one, being that you were shopping for Ti forks: Loading Image...

All materials have a fatigue life, including Ti.

-- Jay Beattie.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-27 23:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by jbeattie
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
Well, that's wrong. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm
https://tinyurl.com/443a4p97
You'll particularly like this one, being that you were shopping for Ti forks: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/spicer-fork-gerrys.jpg
All materials have a fatigue life, including Ti.
Not true, although there's some mixing of terms going on.

What you and Tom are talking about is called the "Fatigue Limit" or
"Endurance Limit." For materials that have such a thing, it's a level of
(repeated) stress below which fatigue will not occur. So _if_ a part is
designed (heavy enough) so that fatigue stresses stay below that limit,
fatigue is not expected to occur.

But keep in mind, if the part is designed light enough, repeated
stresses can exceed that limit. So even metals with a definite fatigue
limit can fatigue. My prime example was the Reynolds 531 forks on our
tandem - track gage instead of tandem gage.

Some titanium alloys do have fatigue (or endurance) limits, but I don't
know if all of them do.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
2021-03-28 15:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by jbeattie
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
Well, that's wrong. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm
https://tinyurl.com/443a4p97
You'll particularly like this one, being that you were shopping for Ti forks: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/spicer-fork-gerrys.jpg
All materials have a fatigue life, including Ti.
Not true, although there's some mixing of terms going on.
What you and Tom are talking about is called the "Fatigue Limit" or
"Endurance Limit." For materials that have such a thing, it's a level of
(repeated) stress below which fatigue will not occur. So _if_ a part is
designed (heavy enough) so that fatigue stresses stay below that limit,
fatigue is not expected to occur.
But keep in mind, if the part is designed light enough, repeated
stresses can exceed that limit. So even metals with a definite fatigue
limit can fatigue. My prime example was the Reynolds 531 forks on our
tandem - track gage instead of tandem gage.
Some titanium alloys do have fatigue (or endurance) limits, but I don't
know if all of them do.
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me. He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
jbeattie
2021-03-28 15:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by jbeattie
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
Well, that's wrong. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm
https://tinyurl.com/443a4p97
You'll particularly like this one, being that you were shopping for Ti forks: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/spicer-fork-gerrys.jpg
All materials have a fatigue life, including Ti.
Not true, although there's some mixing of terms going on.
What you and Tom are talking about is called the "Fatigue Limit" or
"Endurance Limit." For materials that have such a thing, it's a level of
(repeated) stress below which fatigue will not occur. So _if_ a part is
designed (heavy enough) so that fatigue stresses stay below that limit,
fatigue is not expected to occur.
But keep in mind, if the part is designed light enough, repeated
stresses can exceed that limit. So even metals with a definite fatigue
limit can fatigue. My prime example was the Reynolds 531 forks on our
tandem - track gage instead of tandem gage.
Some titanium alloys do have fatigue (or endurance) limits, but I don't
know if all of them do.
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me. He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I don't believe you because your error rate is so high. Not withstanding the fatigue limit of Ti metal, as used in bicycle frames, it clearly has a fatigue limit -- and cycles to failure are routinely measured, as in the article from Sheldon Brown. All failures are not in infancy.

-- Jay Beattie.
Tom Kunich
2021-03-28 15:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by jbeattie
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
Well, that's wrong. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm
https://tinyurl.com/443a4p97
You'll particularly like this one, being that you were shopping for Ti forks: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/spicer-fork-gerrys.jpg
All materials have a fatigue life, including Ti.
Not true, although there's some mixing of terms going on.
What you and Tom are talking about is called the "Fatigue Limit" or
"Endurance Limit." For materials that have such a thing, it's a level of
(repeated) stress below which fatigue will not occur. So _if_ a part is
designed (heavy enough) so that fatigue stresses stay below that limit,
fatigue is not expected to occur.
But keep in mind, if the part is designed light enough, repeated
stresses can exceed that limit. So even metals with a definite fatigue
limit can fatigue. My prime example was the Reynolds 531 forks on our
tandem - track gage instead of tandem gage.
Some titanium alloys do have fatigue (or endurance) limits, but I don't
know if all of them do.
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me. He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I don't believe you because your error rate is so high. Not withstanding the fatigue limit of Ti metal, as used in bicycle frames, it clearly has a fatigue limit -- and cycles to failure are routinely measured, as in the article from Sheldon Brown. All failures are not in infancy.
-- Jay Beattie.
In case you didn't notice- it, that article was from 1997. Those frames, again, were not being fatigue tested but tested to their mechanical limits.
Jeff Liebermann
2021-03-28 20:17:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me.
He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I also would not believe you. The sun does not "come up" or "go
down". That would imply that the sun is moving relative to the Earth,
which is not the case. The geocentric model of the solar system, with
the Earth at the center of the solar system, fell out of favor in
about the 17th century, after several heroic last stands and scientist
incinerations by the papacy:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism>
Today, the accepted geometry is a heliocentric model, with a Sun at
its proper location at the center of the solar system. Unfortunately,
we are still left with the rather unscientific description where the
sun, moon, constellations, and stars might rise or fall. It should
have changed when we switched to a heliocentric model, but didn't.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no universally recognized
correct description. Something like these might be candidates:
"The sun comes into view as the earth rotates"
"The sun comes into view"
"The apparent motion of the rising sun"
or something similar. All of these are scientifically correct, but
sound awful, which is probably why nothing has changed. Still, this
is a technical group, where personal opinions involving science,
engineering, mechanics, and bicycles are expected to be technically
accurate. Therefore, I suggest you avoid using "come up" or "rising
sun" and replace them with a scientifically accurate description.

There has been some serious scientific thought given to the
probability of the sun failing to come into view tomorrow.
"Will the sun rise tomorrow?"
<https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/will-the-sun-rise-tomorrow-255afc810682/>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_problem>

There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
darkness:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23

There may also have been an event where the relative motion of the sun
(relative to the earth) froze for a full day, thus extending the
available sunlight so that a battle could be won:
<https://biblehub.com/joshua/10-13.htm>

Therefore, it is quite possible that the sun might fail to come into
view tomorrow, or be delayed a few hours or days.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
AMuzi
2021-03-28 21:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me.
He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I also would not believe you. The sun does not "come up" or "go
down". That would imply that the sun is moving relative to the Earth,
which is not the case. The geocentric model of the solar system, with
the Earth at the center of the solar system, fell out of favor in
about the 17th century, after several heroic last stands and scientist
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism>
Today, the accepted geometry is a heliocentric model, with a Sun at
its proper location at the center of the solar system. Unfortunately,
we are still left with the rather unscientific description where the
sun, moon, constellations, and stars might rise or fall. It should
have changed when we switched to a heliocentric model, but didn't.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no universally recognized
"The sun comes into view as the earth rotates"
"The sun comes into view"
"The apparent motion of the rising sun"
or something similar. All of these are scientifically correct, but
sound awful, which is probably why nothing has changed. Still, this
is a technical group, where personal opinions involving science,
engineering, mechanics, and bicycles are expected to be technically
accurate. Therefore, I suggest you avoid using "come up" or "rising
sun" and replace them with a scientifically accurate description.
There has been some serious scientific thought given to the
probability of the sun failing to come into view tomorrow.
"Will the sun rise tomorrow?"
<https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/will-the-sun-rise-tomorrow-255afc810682/>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_problem>
There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23
There may also have been an event where the relative motion of the sun
(relative to the earth) froze for a full day, thus extending the
<https://biblehub.com/joshua/10-13.htm>
Therefore, it is quite possible that the sun might fail to come into
view tomorrow, or be delayed a few hours or days.
Or the sun could just go nuts and do the herkey jerkey as at
Fatima 1917.

Things humans can imagine just might happen. Or not.

http://francismary.org/miracle-of-the-dancing-sun-at-fatima-eye-witness-accounts/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Jeff Liebermann
2021-03-28 21:42:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Jeff Liebermann
There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23
Or the sun could just go nuts and do the herkey jerkey as at
Fatima 1917.
Things humans can imagine just might happen. Or not.
http://francismary.org/miracle-of-the-dancing-sun-at-fatima-eye-witness-accounts/
I don't know much about Fatima, but I have seen some rather weird
weather related phenomenon:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=strange+clouds&tbm=isch>
along with the usual Photoshop fakes.

Reverse engineering biblical events is always fun. For Moses in
Egypt, three days of total darkness ignores that Passover is
celebrated on the full moon, which suggests that Moses negotiating
with Pharaoh happened around the same time. The Hebrew calendar is a
lunar not a solar calendar. If the full moon was shining, there would
be plenty of available light, regardless of what the sun was doing.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Tom Kunich
2021-03-29 00:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by AMuzi
Post by Jeff Liebermann
There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23
Or the sun could just go nuts and do the herkey jerkey as at
Fatima 1917.
Things humans can imagine just might happen. Or not.
http://francismary.org/miracle-of-the-dancing-sun-at-fatima-eye-witness-accounts/
I don't know much about Fatima, but I have seen some rather weird
<https://www.google.com/search?q=strange+clouds&tbm=isch>
along with the usual Photoshop fakes.
Reverse engineering biblical events is always fun. For Moses in
Egypt, three days of total darkness ignores that Passover is
celebrated on the full moon, which suggests that Moses negotiating
with Pharaoh happened around the same time. The Hebrew calendar is a
lunar not a solar calendar. If the full moon was shining, there would
be plenty of available light, regardless of what the sun was doing.
Only someone as highly educated as you doesn't think that the sun doesn't come up in the morning or sets at night. I sure wish everyone would be a smart as you are. Oh, wait, they are - they voted for Biden who as one of his first orders of business invaded Syria. Then the media with all of the intelligence you have printed that they had made a missile attack on the Americans. Funny how there were only military adviser forces left and they weren't in any range of missile attacks. With all of that Jeff-like intelligence Biden just said that illegal immigrants always increase around Christmas. Too bad that the actual numbers show exactly the reverse.

Yep, Jeff, you make morons seem highly intelligent. Play that roll you have given yourself.
Jeff Liebermann
2021-03-29 02:48:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Only someone as highly educated as you doesn't think that
the sun doesn't come up in the morning or sets at night.
"31 logical fallacies in 8 minutes"
(8:10)

0:33 Fallacy of Composition
0:42 Fallacy of Division
0:52 The Gambler's Fallacy
1:00 Tu Quoque (Who Are You To Talk?)
1:19 Strawman
1:32 Ad hominem
1:49 Genetic Fallacy
1:56 Fallacious Appeal To Authority
2:15 Red Herring
2:34 Appeal to Emotion
2:48 Appeal to Popularity (Bandwagon)
2:52 Appeal to Tradition
2:56 Appeal to Nature
3:04 Appeal to Ignorance
3:16 Begging the Question
3:32 Equivocation
3:50 False Dichotomy (Black or White)
4:00 Middle Ground Fallacy
4:09 Decision Point Fallacy (Sorites Paradox)
4:29 Slippery Slope Fallacy
4:46 Hasty Generalisations (Anecdotes)
5:05 Faulty Analogy
5:14 Burden of Proof
5:43 Affirming the Consequent
6:10 Denying the Antecedent
6:22 Moving the Goalposts
6:35 False Cause (and Texas Sharpshooter)
6:54 Loaded Question
7:01 No True Scotsman
7:10 Personal Incredulity
7:18 The Fallacy Fallacy

I'm not sure, but I suspect you may have used all 31 logical falacies
in your various failed attempts to engage in a discussion. However,
that doesn't really matter because few of your discussions are worth
reading due to lack of useful content. For example, what is the take
away from your topic switching rant that follows? Can you prove or
substantiate anything?
Post by Tom Kunich
I sure wish everyone would be a smart as you are.
So do I. It would make for much more interesting discussions.

I really hate it when every one of your messages looks like it came
from a cookie cutter template:
1. Opening insult.
2. Exactly one sentence announcing opposition to someones ideas.
3. Attempt to change the topic to something you find interesting.
4. Multiple off topic claims all without substantiation.
5. Closing insult, often with some spelling and grammar errors.
Post by Tom Kunich
Oh, wait, they are - they voted for Biden who as one of his first
orders of business invaded Syria. Then the media with all of the
intelligence you have printed that they had made a missile attack
on the Americans. Funny how there were only military adviser forces
left and they weren't in any range of missile attacks. With all of
that Jeff-like intelligence Biden just said that illegal immigrants
always increase around Christmas. Too bad that the actual numbers
show exactly the reverse.
Yep. Cookie cutter template. There are a few common items missing
from the template, but I can add those as needed. I think you might
find the template useful for future topic juggling rants.
Post by Tom Kunich
Yep, Jeff, you make morons seem highly intelligent. Play that roll you have given yourself.
The line I used prefer is:
"May you burn in the hell of your own creation".
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Sir Ridesalot
2021-03-29 04:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Only someone as highly educated as you doesn't think that
the sun doesn't come up in the morning or sets at night.
"31 logical fallacies in 8 minutes"
http://youtu.be/Qf03U04rqGQ (8:10)
0:33 Fallacy of Composition
0:42 Fallacy of Division
0:52 The Gambler's Fallacy
1:00 Tu Quoque (Who Are You To Talk?)
1:19 Strawman
1:32 Ad hominem
1:49 Genetic Fallacy
1:56 Fallacious Appeal To Authority
2:15 Red Herring
2:34 Appeal to Emotion
2:48 Appeal to Popularity (Bandwagon)
2:52 Appeal to Tradition
2:56 Appeal to Nature
3:04 Appeal to Ignorance
3:16 Begging the Question
3:32 Equivocation
3:50 False Dichotomy (Black or White)
4:00 Middle Ground Fallacy
4:09 Decision Point Fallacy (Sorites Paradox)
4:29 Slippery Slope Fallacy
4:46 Hasty Generalisations (Anecdotes)
5:05 Faulty Analogy
5:14 Burden of Proof
5:43 Affirming the Consequent
6:10 Denying the Antecedent
6:22 Moving the Goalposts
6:35 False Cause (and Texas Sharpshooter)
6:54 Loaded Question
7:01 No True Scotsman
7:10 Personal Incredulity
7:18 The Fallacy Fallacy
I'm not sure, but I suspect you may have used all 31 logical falacies
in your various failed attempts to engage in a discussion. However,
that doesn't really matter because few of your discussions are worth
reading due to lack of useful content. For example, what is the take
away from your topic switching rant that follows? Can you prove or
substantiate anything?
Post by Tom Kunich
I sure wish everyone would be a smart as you are.
So do I. It would make for much more interesting discussions.
I really hate it when every one of your messages looks like it came
1. Opening insult.
2. Exactly one sentence announcing opposition to someones ideas.
3. Attempt to change the topic to something you find interesting.
4. Multiple off topic claims all without substantiation.
5. Closing insult, often with some spelling and grammar errors.
Post by Tom Kunich
Oh, wait, they are - they voted for Biden who as one of his first
orders of business invaded Syria. Then the media with all of the
intelligence you have printed that they had made a missile attack
on the Americans. Funny how there were only military adviser forces
left and they weren't in any range of missile attacks. With all of
that Jeff-like intelligence Biden just said that illegal immigrants
always increase around Christmas. Too bad that the actual numbers
show exactly the reverse.
Yep. Cookie cutter template. There are a few common items missing
from the template, but I can add those as needed. I think you might
find the template useful for future topic juggling rants.
Post by Tom Kunich
Yep, Jeff, you make morons seem highly intelligent. Play that roll
you have given yourself.
"May you burn in the hell of your own creation".
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
If Tom is so bad, why not Killfile him or simply ignore him?

Cheers
Ralph Barone
2021-03-29 15:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Only someone as highly educated as you doesn't think that
the sun doesn't come up in the morning or sets at night.
"31 logical fallacies in 8 minutes"
http://youtu.be/Qf03U04rqGQ (8:10)
0:33 Fallacy of Composition
0:42 Fallacy of Division
0:52 The Gambler's Fallacy
1:00 Tu Quoque (Who Are You To Talk?)
1:19 Strawman
1:32 Ad hominem
1:49 Genetic Fallacy
1:56 Fallacious Appeal To Authority
2:15 Red Herring
2:34 Appeal to Emotion
2:48 Appeal to Popularity (Bandwagon)
2:52 Appeal to Tradition
2:56 Appeal to Nature
3:04 Appeal to Ignorance
3:16 Begging the Question
3:32 Equivocation
3:50 False Dichotomy (Black or White)
4:00 Middle Ground Fallacy
4:09 Decision Point Fallacy (Sorites Paradox)
4:29 Slippery Slope Fallacy
4:46 Hasty Generalisations (Anecdotes)
5:05 Faulty Analogy
5:14 Burden of Proof
5:43 Affirming the Consequent
6:10 Denying the Antecedent
6:22 Moving the Goalposts
6:35 False Cause (and Texas Sharpshooter)
6:54 Loaded Question
7:01 No True Scotsman
7:10 Personal Incredulity
7:18 The Fallacy Fallacy
I'm not sure, but I suspect you may have used all 31 logical falacies
in your various failed attempts to engage in a discussion. However,
that doesn't really matter because few of your discussions are worth
reading due to lack of useful content. For example, what is the take
away from your topic switching rant that follows? Can you prove or
substantiate anything?
Post by Tom Kunich
I sure wish everyone would be a smart as you are.
So do I. It would make for much more interesting discussions.
I really hate it when every one of your messages looks like it came
1. Opening insult.
2. Exactly one sentence announcing opposition to someones ideas.
3. Attempt to change the topic to something you find interesting.
4. Multiple off topic claims all without substantiation.
5. Closing insult, often with some spelling and grammar errors.
Post by Tom Kunich
Oh, wait, they are - they voted for Biden who as one of his first
orders of business invaded Syria. Then the media with all of the
intelligence you have printed that they had made a missile attack
on the Americans. Funny how there were only military adviser forces
left and they weren't in any range of missile attacks. With all of
that Jeff-like intelligence Biden just said that illegal immigrants
always increase around Christmas. Too bad that the actual numbers
show exactly the reverse.
Yep. Cookie cutter template. There are a few common items missing
from the template, but I can add those as needed. I think you might
find the template useful for future topic juggling rants.
Post by Tom Kunich
Yep, Jeff, you make morons seem highly intelligent. Play that roll
you have given yourself.
"May you burn in the hell of your own creation".
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
If Tom is so bad, why not Killfile him or simply ignore him?
Cheers
Because responding provides a convenient canvas upon which the respondents
can paint their own narratives. Unfortunately...
Ralph Barone
2021-03-29 15:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Barone
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Only someone as highly educated as you doesn't think that
the sun doesn't come up in the morning or sets at night.
"31 logical fallacies in 8 minutes"
http://youtu.be/Qf03U04rqGQ (8:10)
0:33 Fallacy of Composition
0:42 Fallacy of Division
0:52 The Gambler's Fallacy
1:00 Tu Quoque (Who Are You To Talk?)
1:19 Strawman
1:32 Ad hominem
1:49 Genetic Fallacy
1:56 Fallacious Appeal To Authority
2:15 Red Herring
2:34 Appeal to Emotion
2:48 Appeal to Popularity (Bandwagon)
2:52 Appeal to Tradition
2:56 Appeal to Nature
3:04 Appeal to Ignorance
3:16 Begging the Question
3:32 Equivocation
3:50 False Dichotomy (Black or White)
4:00 Middle Ground Fallacy
4:09 Decision Point Fallacy (Sorites Paradox)
4:29 Slippery Slope Fallacy
4:46 Hasty Generalisations (Anecdotes)
5:05 Faulty Analogy
5:14 Burden of Proof
5:43 Affirming the Consequent
6:10 Denying the Antecedent
6:22 Moving the Goalposts
6:35 False Cause (and Texas Sharpshooter)
6:54 Loaded Question
7:01 No True Scotsman
7:10 Personal Incredulity
7:18 The Fallacy Fallacy
I'm not sure, but I suspect you may have used all 31 logical falacies
in your various failed attempts to engage in a discussion. However,
that doesn't really matter because few of your discussions are worth
reading due to lack of useful content. For example, what is the take
away from your topic switching rant that follows? Can you prove or
substantiate anything?
Post by Tom Kunich
I sure wish everyone would be a smart as you are.
So do I. It would make for much more interesting discussions.
I really hate it when every one of your messages looks like it came
1. Opening insult.
2. Exactly one sentence announcing opposition to someones ideas.
3. Attempt to change the topic to something you find interesting.
4. Multiple off topic claims all without substantiation.
5. Closing insult, often with some spelling and grammar errors.
Post by Tom Kunich
Oh, wait, they are - they voted for Biden who as one of his first
orders of business invaded Syria. Then the media with all of the
intelligence you have printed that they had made a missile attack
on the Americans. Funny how there were only military adviser forces
left and they weren't in any range of missile attacks. With all of
that Jeff-like intelligence Biden just said that illegal immigrants
always increase around Christmas. Too bad that the actual numbers
show exactly the reverse.
Yep. Cookie cutter template. There are a few common items missing
from the template, but I can add those as needed. I think you might
find the template useful for future topic juggling rants.
Post by Tom Kunich
Yep, Jeff, you make morons seem highly intelligent. Play that roll
you have given yourself.
"May you burn in the hell of your own creation".
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
If Tom is so bad, why not Killfile him or simply ignore him?
Cheers
Because responding provides a convenient canvas upon which the respondents
can paint their own narratives. Unfortunately...
Oh, and some people can’t read a falsehood on the internet without wanting
to correct it. That’s a positive attitude, but when it gets you locked into
discussions with people who flat out refuse to see your point, I’m not sure
what the value is.
AMuzi
2021-03-29 15:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Barone
Post by Ralph Barone
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:06:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Only someone as highly educated as you doesn't think that
the sun doesn't come up in the morning or sets at night.
"31 logical fallacies in 8 minutes"
http://youtu.be/Qf03U04rqGQ (8:10)
0:33 Fallacy of Composition
0:42 Fallacy of Division
0:52 The Gambler's Fallacy
1:00 Tu Quoque (Who Are You To Talk?)
1:19 Strawman
1:32 Ad hominem
1:49 Genetic Fallacy
1:56 Fallacious Appeal To Authority
2:15 Red Herring
2:34 Appeal to Emotion
2:48 Appeal to Popularity (Bandwagon)
2:52 Appeal to Tradition
2:56 Appeal to Nature
3:04 Appeal to Ignorance
3:16 Begging the Question
3:32 Equivocation
3:50 False Dichotomy (Black or White)
4:00 Middle Ground Fallacy
4:09 Decision Point Fallacy (Sorites Paradox)
4:29 Slippery Slope Fallacy
4:46 Hasty Generalisations (Anecdotes)
5:05 Faulty Analogy
5:14 Burden of Proof
5:43 Affirming the Consequent
6:10 Denying the Antecedent
6:22 Moving the Goalposts
6:35 False Cause (and Texas Sharpshooter)
6:54 Loaded Question
7:01 No True Scotsman
7:10 Personal Incredulity
7:18 The Fallacy Fallacy
I'm not sure, but I suspect you may have used all 31 logical falacies
in your various failed attempts to engage in a discussion. However,
that doesn't really matter because few of your discussions are worth
reading due to lack of useful content. For example, what is the take
away from your topic switching rant that follows? Can you prove or
substantiate anything?
Post by Tom Kunich
I sure wish everyone would be a smart as you are.
So do I. It would make for much more interesting discussions.
I really hate it when every one of your messages looks like it came
1. Opening insult.
2. Exactly one sentence announcing opposition to someones ideas.
3. Attempt to change the topic to something you find interesting.
4. Multiple off topic claims all without substantiation.
5. Closing insult, often with some spelling and grammar errors.
Post by Tom Kunich
Oh, wait, they are - they voted for Biden who as one of his first
orders of business invaded Syria. Then the media with all of the
intelligence you have printed that they had made a missile attack
on the Americans. Funny how there were only military adviser forces
left and they weren't in any range of missile attacks. With all of
that Jeff-like intelligence Biden just said that illegal immigrants
always increase around Christmas. Too bad that the actual numbers
show exactly the reverse.
Yep. Cookie cutter template. There are a few common items missing
from the template, but I can add those as needed. I think you might
find the template useful for future topic juggling rants.
Post by Tom Kunich
Yep, Jeff, you make morons seem highly intelligent. Play that roll
you have given yourself.
"May you burn in the hell of your own creation".
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
If Tom is so bad, why not Killfile him or simply ignore him?
Cheers
Because responding provides a convenient canvas upon which the respondents
can paint their own narratives. Unfortunately...
Oh, and some people can’t read a falsehood on the internet without wanting
to correct it. That’s a positive attitude, but when it gets you locked into
discussions with people who flat out refuse to see your point, I’m not sure
what the value is.
One is reminded of the quip about academia, "The competition
is so brutal because the stakes are so small."
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
News 2021
2021-03-28 21:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Therefore, it is quite possible that the sun might fail to come into
view tomorrow, or be delayed a few hours or days.
For us, it will do so on April 4th; end of summer daylight saving.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-28 21:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me.
He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I also would not believe you. The sun does not "come up" or "go
down". That would imply that the sun is moving relative to the Earth,
which is not the case. The geocentric model of the solar system, with
the Earth at the center of the solar system, fell out of favor in
about the 17th century, after several heroic last stands and scientist
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism>
Today, the accepted geometry is a heliocentric model, with a Sun at
its proper location at the center of the solar system. Unfortunately,
we are still left with the rather unscientific description where the
sun, moon, constellations, and stars might rise or fall. It should
have changed when we switched to a heliocentric model, but didn't.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no universally recognized
"The sun comes into view as the earth rotates"
"The sun comes into view"
"The apparent motion of the rising sun"
or something similar. All of these are scientifically correct, but
sound awful, which is probably why nothing has changed. Still, this
is a technical group, where personal opinions involving science,
engineering, mechanics, and bicycles are expected to be technically
accurate. Therefore, I suggest you avoid using "come up" or "rising
sun" and replace them with a scientifically accurate description.
Well: Over the last few years I've developed an interest in sundials, a
subject that turned out to be far more complicated than I anticipated. I
ended up reading a couple books on the subject, most prominently Albert
Waugh's _Sundials, Their Theory and Construction_. The book is technical
enough to contain extensive tables, dozens of technical illustrations,
trigonometric equations and calculations etc.

But as early as page 6, Waugh says "In our treatment of the matter we
shall ordinarily describe things as they seem rather than as they really
are. We shall thus speak of the sun's "rising in the east"... etc.

I think it's far more pertinent and important to work out why have
clipless pedals that we clip into.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Jeff Liebermann
2021-03-28 23:55:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:55:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Well: Over the last few years I've developed an interest in sundials, a
subject that turned out to be far more complicated than I anticipated. I
ended up reading a couple books on the subject, most prominently Albert
Waugh's _Sundials, Their Theory and Construction_. The book is technical
enough to contain extensive tables, dozens of technical illustrations,
trigonometric equations and calculations etc.
Out of curiosity, how do you handle daylight savings time on a
sundial?
Post by Frank Krygowski
But as early as page 6, Waugh says "In our treatment of the matter we
shall ordinarily describe things as they seem rather than as they really
are. We shall thus speak of the sun's "rising in the east"... etc.
Tradition wins over science. That may explain why we still seem to be
crawling out of the dark ages.
Post by Frank Krygowski
I think it's far more pertinent and important to work out why have
clipless pedals that we clip into.
Well, if you insist. The explanation is rather simple and best
introduced with an analogy. When horse drawn wagons were the common
mode of transportation, someone would sit in the wagon, and make
cracking noises with a whip, which inspired the horses or oxen to move
forward or stop. Said person became known as the "driver". The
process was known as "driving" or "to drive".

Somewhat later, inventors began replacing the horses and oxen pulling
the wagon with internal and external combustion engines. The operator
remained the "driver". Although know whip was necessary, the process
became known as "driving". Adherence to tradition was punctuated by
the long life of the buggy whip socket.

Today, we "drive" an automobile without horses, oxen. The whip has
been replaced by a horn, which also makes loud noises and is intended
to inspire competing "drivers" to move forward or stop. Not much has
changed here except the engine, so all the descriptive buzzwords
remain unchanged.

It's much the same with the clipless pedal. Removing the toe clip was
much the same as removing the horse. The resultant clipless mechanism
was much the same as the original with toe clips. Therefore, the
process of activating the device retained the name as in "clip into"
the pedal.

It's like that for any evolving technology. There is a certain
resistance to adopting new terminology when only a small part of the
technology has changed. If a different name had been selected for the
clipless pedals, I'm sure there would be more confusion than just
"clipless" as everything attached would also change. Best to stay
with the familiar, than to venture in the wilds of radical changes.

I forgot to mention the problem with "clipless". While the original
clip type pedals had "toe clips", the new and improved "clipless"
pedals did not have toe clips, but do require the riders foot to be
secured to the pedal by a locking mechanism. A new name would be
needed for such a locking mechanism. Since "clip" was already taken,
some marketing lunatic lacking in imagination stupidly selected
"clipless". If past history is any indication of the future, we're
going to be stuck with the "clipless" name forever.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
John B.
2021-03-29 03:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:55:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Well: Over the last few years I've developed an interest in sundials, a
subject that turned out to be far more complicated than I anticipated. I
ended up reading a couple books on the subject, most prominently Albert
Waugh's _Sundials, Their Theory and Construction_. The book is technical
enough to contain extensive tables, dozens of technical illustrations,
trigonometric equations and calculations etc.
Out of curiosity, how do you handle daylight savings time on a
sundial?
Post by Frank Krygowski
But as early as page 6, Waugh says "In our treatment of the matter we
shall ordinarily describe things as they seem rather than as they really
are. We shall thus speak of the sun's "rising in the east"... etc.
Tradition wins over science. That may explain why we still seem to be
crawling out of the dark ages.
Post by Frank Krygowski
I think it's far more pertinent and important to work out why have
clipless pedals that we clip into.
Well, if you insist. The explanation is rather simple and best
introduced with an analogy. When horse drawn wagons were the common
mode of transportation, someone would sit in the wagon, and make
cracking noises with a whip, which inspired the horses or oxen to move
forward or stop. Said person became known as the "driver". The
process was known as "driving" or "to drive".
Sounds good, but...

drive (v.)
Old English drifan "to compel or urge to move, impel in some direction
or manner; to hunt (deer), pursue; to rush against" (class I strong
verb; past tense draf, past participle drifen), from Proto-Germanic
*dreibanan (source also of Old Frisian driva"I lead, impel, drive
(away)," Old Saxon driban, Dutch drijven, Old High German triban,
German treiben, Old Norse drifa, Gothic dreiban "to drive"),
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Somewhat later, inventors began replacing the horses and oxen pulling
the wagon with internal and external combustion engines. The operator
remained the "driver". Although know whip was necessary, the process
became known as "driving". Adherence to tradition was punctuated by
the long life of the buggy whip socket.
Today, we "drive" an automobile without horses, oxen. The whip has
been replaced by a horn, which also makes loud noises and is intended
to inspire competing "drivers" to move forward or stop. Not much has
changed here except the engine, so all the descriptive buzzwords
remain unchanged.
It's much the same with the clipless pedal. Removing the toe clip was
much the same as removing the horse. The resultant clipless mechanism
was much the same as the original with toe clips. Therefore, the
process of activating the device retained the name as in "clip into"
the pedal.
It's like that for any evolving technology. There is a certain
resistance to adopting new terminology when only a small part of the
technology has changed. If a different name had been selected for the
clipless pedals, I'm sure there would be more confusion than just
"clipless" as everything attached would also change. Best to stay
with the familiar, than to venture in the wilds of radical changes.
I forgot to mention the problem with "clipless". While the original
clip type pedals had "toe clips", the new and improved "clipless"
pedals did not have toe clips, but do require the riders foot to be
secured to the pedal by a locking mechanism. A new name would be
needed for such a locking mechanism. Since "clip" was already taken,
some marketing lunatic lacking in imagination stupidly selected
"clipless". If past history is any indication of the future, we're
going to be stuck with the "clipless" name forever.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-29 03:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 17:55:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Well: Over the last few years I've developed an interest in sundials, a
subject that turned out to be far more complicated than I anticipated. I
ended up reading a couple books on the subject, most prominently Albert
Waugh's _Sundials, Their Theory and Construction_. The book is technical
enough to contain extensive tables, dozens of technical illustrations,
trigonometric equations and calculations etc.
Out of curiosity, how do you handle daylight savings time on a
sundial?
Well, most sundials don't account for it at all. Most commercial sundials are of the horizontal
style, are just ornamental and are useless for telling time. For example, to be anywhere near
useful, the gnomon (or shadow casting thing) has to point at the Pole Star, so it must match
one's latitude. They probably match the city in China where they're made.

But there are better ones. At our university is a sundial in memory of Rich Pirko who was a
friend of mine and who ran our planetarium. It's a completely different design, an equatorial
dial. The design allows the hour ring to be shifted for Daylight Saving Time.

My sundial, 99% finished, is a reflecting ceiling sundial - a collection of analemmas painted
on the ceiling. Once I find a company that will provide the labels, it will have the DS time at
the summer end of each analemma and the Eastern Standard time label at the winter end.

- Frank Krygowski
John B.
2021-03-29 03:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me.
He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I also would not believe you. The sun does not "come up" or "go
down". That would imply that the sun is moving relative to the Earth,
which is not the case. The geocentric model of the solar system, with
the Earth at the center of the solar system, fell out of favor in
about the 17th century, after several heroic last stands and scientist
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism>
Today, the accepted geometry is a heliocentric model, with a Sun at
its proper location at the center of the solar system. Unfortunately,
we are still left with the rather unscientific description where the
sun, moon, constellations, and stars might rise or fall. It should
have changed when we switched to a heliocentric model, but didn't.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no universally recognized
"The sun comes into view as the earth rotates"
"The sun comes into view"
"The apparent motion of the rising sun"
or something similar. All of these are scientifically correct, but
sound awful, which is probably why nothing has changed. Still, this
is a technical group, where personal opinions involving science,
engineering, mechanics, and bicycles are expected to be technically
accurate. Therefore, I suggest you avoid using "come up" or "rising
sun" and replace them with a scientifically accurate description.
There has been some serious scientific thought given to the
probability of the sun failing to come into view tomorrow.
"Will the sun rise tomorrow?"
<https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/will-the-sun-rise-tomorrow-255afc810682/>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_problem>
There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23
There may also have been an event where the relative motion of the sun
(relative to the earth) froze for a full day, thus extending the
<https://biblehub.com/joshua/10-13.htm>
Therefore, it is quite possible that the sun might fail to come into
view tomorrow, or be delayed a few hours or days.
Well Rudyard Kipling tells us that "the dawn comes up like thunder
outer China 'crost the Bay!"
--
Cheers,

John B.
John B.
2021-03-27 22:49:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 14:59:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
"since titanium has no fatigue life"? Where do you get these wild
ideas? Titanium, just as any other metal. does have fatigue limits as
even a cursory look at the literature would show. Google it and you
get something like 3 million hits.
--
Cheers,

John B.
AMuzi
2021-03-28 14:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.

Very expensive titanium handcycle for a cripple:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
Note multiple cracks. More:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tom Kunich
2021-03-28 15:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over a couple of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000 miles put on it and no problems.

Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
Tom Kunich
2021-03-28 15:48:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by AMuzi
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over a couple of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000 miles put on it and no problems.
Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
What causes fatigue in bicycles? These are almost entirely shock loadings and these are mitigated by tires, wheels and the way you sit on a bike. The higher your weight the higher the shock loadings of course because the higher the pressure you have to retain in your tires. This is why bicycle as a rule do not fail from fatigue as much as mechanical failures. By this I mean that the as resins age from time or exposure to UV light, thy develop cracks in their surface which can gradually fork their way through the material enough that it no longer supports the composite. If the material has thick enough layup, such as fiberglas boat hulls, it never gets to the mount that the material is materially weakened. But bicycles are made to be light as possible and that means that destruction of the resin is fairly easy (comparatively). Shock loadings on aluminum are the same sort of problem. They can eventually start cracking. But these days with 28 mm tires I wouldn't expect this to happen. the shock are simply too low. I have never seen a higher end steel bike fail from anything other than a rather serious accident.

Think about this, if you bend a steel rebar back and forth enough times it will break but that has no relationship to fatigue life. But that same rebar in sufficient quantities set into a concrete overpass will last forever.
AMuzi
2021-03-28 16:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by AMuzi
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset ove
r a couple of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000 miles put on it and no problems.
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
What causes fatigue in bicycles? These are almost entirely shock loadings and these are mitigated by tires, wheels and the way you sit on a bike. The higher your weight the higher the shock loadings of course because the higher the pressure you have to retain in your tires. This is why bicycle as a rule do not fail from fatigue as much as mechanical failures. By this I mean that the as resins age from time or exposure to UV light, thy develop cracks in their surface which can gradually fork their way through the material enough that it no longer supports the composite. If the material has thick enough layup, such as fiberglas boat hulls, it never gets to the mount that the material is materially weakened. But bicycles are made to be light as possible and that means that destruction of the resin is fairly easy (comparatively). Shock loadings on aluminum are the same sort of problem. They can eventually start cracking. But these days with 28 mm tires I wouldn't expect this to happen
. the shock are simply too low. I have never seen a higher end steel bike fail from anything other than a rather serious accident.
Post by Tom Kunich
Think about this, if you bend a steel rebar back and forth enough times it will break but that has no relationship to fatigue life. But that same rebar in sufficient quantities set into a concrete overpass will last forever.
Another large group are cracks perpendicular to or across
the weld line from internal stress during weld of a closed
figure.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
John B.
2021-03-28 23:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by AMuzi
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset ove
r a couple of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000 miles put on it and no problems.
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
What causes fatigue in bicycles? These are almost entirely shock loadings and these are mitigated by tires, wheels and the way you sit on a bike. The higher your weight the higher the shock loadings of course because the higher the pressure you have to retain in your tires. This is why bicycle as a rule do not fail from fatigue as much as mechanical failures. By this I mean that the as resins age from time or exposure to UV light, thy develop cracks in their surface which can gradually fork their way through the material enough that it no longer supports the composite. If the material has thick enough layup, such as fiberglas boat hulls, it never gets to the mount that the material is materially weakened. But bicycles are made to be light as possible and that means that destruction of the resin is fairly easy (comparatively). Shock loadings on aluminum are the same sort of problem. They can eventually start cracking. But these days with 28 mm tires I wouldn't expect this to happen
. the shock are simply too low. I have never seen a higher end steel bike fail from anything other than a rather serious accident.
Post by Tom Kunich
Think about this, if you bend a steel rebar back and forth enough times it will break but that has no relationship to fatigue life. But that same rebar in sufficient quantities set into a concrete overpass will last forever.
Another large group are cracks perpendicular to or across
the weld line from internal stress during weld of a closed
figure.
Re welding aluminum and titanium.

Aluminum, at least in the Air Force for a certified welder's
certificate, was welded with a conventional TIG setup, without backup
gas. Tungsten was welded in a chamber completely purged with an inert
gas and the slightest color was reason for the test to be failed. Some
time after I certified the last time a civilian friend who was working
at an Air Force Depot told me that they had successfully welded
titanium using TIG with high gas flow and separate backup gas.

"Backup gas" is what we called the technique of a separate gas flow to
flood the back sides of the weld material to avoid oxidation while
welding.
--
Cheers,

John B.
John B.
2021-03-29 02:09:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:48:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by AMuzi
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by jbeattie
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over
a couple of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000 miles put on it and no problems.
Post by Tom Kunich
Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
What causes fatigue in bicycles? These are almost entirely shock loadings and these are mitigated by tires, wheels and the way you sit on a bike. The higher your weight the higher the shock loadings of course because the higher the pressure you have to retain in your tires. This is why bicycle as a rule do not fail from fatigue as much as mechanical failures. By this I mean that the as resins age from time or exposure to UV light, thy develop cracks in their surface which can gradually fork their way through the material enough that it no longer supports the composite. If the material has thick enough layup, such as fiberglas boat hulls, it never gets to the mount that the material is materially weakened. But bicycles are made to be light as possible and that means that destruction of the resin is fairly easy (comparatively). Shock loadings on aluminum are the same sort of problem. They can eventually start cracking. But these days with 28 mm tires I wouldn't expect this to happen.
the shock are simply too low. I have never seen a higher end steel bike fail from anything other than a rather serious accident.
Think about this, if you bend a steel rebar back and forth enough times it will break but that has no relationship to fatigue life. But that same rebar in sufficient quantities set into a concrete overpass will last forever.
Tommy boy, you have outdone yourself!

You have just exhibited your total lack of comprehension of the
subject that you are talking about for all the world to see.

You see, when you bend a piece of re-bar back and forth enough times
it will break... which is an example of just how fatigue testing is
accomplished.

And (silly boy) the reason that it doesn't break when it is cast into
a concrete overpass is because it isn't being bent back and forth.
--
Cheers,

John B.
Tosspot
2021-03-28 15:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7,
Post by jbeattie
https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Post by Tom Kunich
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more
specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally
live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors
in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has
no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from broken
Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal recycling.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html Note multiple cracks.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium
failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the
area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of
a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react
with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the
inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield
the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form
inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could
cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect
them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story
of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head
tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that
absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply
replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and
put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over a couple
of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000
miles put on it and no problems.
Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
I wondered that. Just about any metal frame failue seems to arrise at
or close to a weld/braze point. Do CF frames go at the glue joints?
Tom Kunich
2021-03-28 19:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by jbeattie
Post by Tom Kunich
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7,
Post by jbeattie
https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/serotta-ti-frame-badged-as-a-schwinn-paramount.27828/
-- Jay Beattie.
Post by Tom Kunich
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more
specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally
live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors
in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has
no fatigue life, they just go on forever.
I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from broken
Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal recycling.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html Note multiple cracks.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+titanium+crack&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium
failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the
area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of
a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react
with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the
inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield
the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form
inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could
cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect
them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story
of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head
tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that
absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply
replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and
put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over a couple
of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000
miles put on it and no problems.
Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
I wondered that. Just about any metal frame failue seems to arrise at
or close to a weld/braze point. Do CF frames go at the glue joints?
No, they go at the flex joints and only after enough time for the resin to break down in that area. People like Look and Time have some sort of "secret" concerning those resins because they do not break down as far as I've been able to determine. Time also has part of the layup layers in Kevlar which is a long stranded material. This stops a frame breakage since a whole hell of a lot more resin has to fail before it would break the frame. I had a Colnago Dream of some submodel that had a carbon fiber B-stay. The bike flexed at that point enough that it broke all of the paint off around that joint. The Douglas I have has the same sort of B-stay and carbon chain stays as well. I don't know what sort of rider the original owner was but there is no sign of flex there.

I stuck the deep carbon wheels in there with the 28'' tires on it and while it is a little close, it has enough clearance.
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-29 11:34:44 UTC
Permalink
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
AMuzi
2021-03-29 12:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end
up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
A lot of that is taste, which is fine.

Threaded BSC forks commonly change with a Deda Spada to
modern (cheap, available) stems:
Loading Image...
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-30 02:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end
up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
A lot of that is taste, which is fine.
Threaded BSC forks commonly change with a Deda Spada to
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/dedaspad.jpg
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
The bike has one of those adapters on it right now. And a threadless stem. But I think a quill stem is correct. So I would advise finding the right looking and length quill stem. Silver aluminum TTT or Cinelli stem. What it should have. Not an adaptor to allow you to switch and swap any threadless stem you like the look of today,
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-29 14:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."


--
- Fra
jbeattie
2021-03-29 14:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Why get locked into old technology and have to find work-arounds, like the quill stem adapter? And this should appeal to you, why get a bicycle with limited tire clearance? How about gear range? If I were looking for an all-in-one bike, it wouldn't be a 23 year old Ti racing frame with a 1" threaded steel steerer. I also would not get Campy, but that is only because all my wheels are set-up for Shimano. If I wanted something fast and cheap, it would be a CAAD 13. And if I wanted something versatile, it would be a Trek Checkpoint. I'm sure the Serotta/Paramount was a fine bike, but there are plenty of reasons for preferring something more current besides "fashion."

-- Jay Beattie.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-29 23:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by jbeattie
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Why get locked into old technology and have to find work-arounds, like the quill stem adapter? And this should appeal to you, why get a bicycle with limited tire clearance? How about gear range? If I were looking for an all-in-one bike, it wouldn't be a 23 year old Ti racing frame with a 1" threaded steel steerer. I also would not get Campy, but that is only because all my wheels are set-up for Shimano. If I wanted something fast and cheap, it would be a CAAD 13. And if I wanted something versatile, it would be a Trek Checkpoint. I'm sure the Serotta/Paramount was a fine bike, but there are plenty of reasons for preferring something more current besides "fashion."
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1" threaded stem. As
Russell said, there's nothing terrible about that. If there were, I'd
have to sell a bunch of bikes. We can discuss details, but the
advantages of threadless are minor to the rider.

Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were not
mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or current" were, and
without specifics, those are fashion words.

--
-
AMuzi
2021-03-29 23:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 7:11:37 AM UTC-7, Frank
Post by Frank Krygowski
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:18:29 PM UTC-5,
Post by ***@yahoo.com
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy.
Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good
or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998
60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by
Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000
since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or
4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork.
Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed
mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and
Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia
saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of
some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is.
Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo
is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change
during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new.
But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time
fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how
much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And
ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super
Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda
wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork
worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name
on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the
frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He
has to buy everything as a package. In this case that
actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about
a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by
Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned.
I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about
acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by
Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as
when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1
inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes
like that. But its not modern and current. And to make
the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem.
And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size.
Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike
currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love
Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I
would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to
stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of
selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing
them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end
up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too
many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and
current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Why get locked into old technology and have to find
work-arounds, like the quill stem adapter? And this
should appeal to you, why get a bicycle with limited tire
clearance? How about gear range? If I were looking for an
all-in-one bike, it wouldn't be a 23 year old Ti racing
frame with a 1" threaded steel steerer. I also would not
get Campy, but that is only because all my wheels are
set-up for Shimano. If I wanted something fast and cheap,
it would be a CAAD 13. And if I wanted something
versatile, it would be a Trek Checkpoint. I'm sure the
Serotta/Paramount was a fine bike, but there are plenty of
reasons for preferring something more current besides
"fashion."
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tom Kunich
2021-03-30 00:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 7:11:37 AM UTC-7, Frank
Post by Frank Krygowski
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:18:29 PM UTC-5,
Post by ***@yahoo.com
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy.
Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good
or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998
60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by
Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000
since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or
4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork.
Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed
mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and
Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia
saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of
some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is.
Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo
is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change
during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new.
But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time
fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how
much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And
ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super
Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda
wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork
worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name
on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the
frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He
has to buy everything as a package. In this case that
actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about
a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by
Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned.
I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about
acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by
Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as
when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1
inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes
like that. But its not modern and current. And to make
the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem.
And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size.
Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike
currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love
Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I
would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to
stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of
selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing
them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end
up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too
many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and
current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Why get locked into old technology and have to find
work-arounds, like the quill stem adapter? And this
should appeal to you, why get a bicycle with limited tire
clearance? How about gear range? If I were looking for an
all-in-one bike, it wouldn't be a 23 year old Ti racing
frame with a 1" threaded steel steerer. I also would not
get Campy, but that is only because all my wheels are
set-up for Shimano. If I wanted something fast and cheap,
it would be a CAAD 13. And if I wanted something
versatile, it would be a Trek Checkpoint. I'm sure the
Serotta/Paramount was a fine bike, but there are plenty of
reasons for preferring something more current besides
"fashion."
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
Glad I'm a friend.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-30 03:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)

- Frank Krygowski
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-30 05:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-30 14:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-30 19:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I'm not bothered by a 1" threaded fork either. Its the right fork with an aluminum TTT quill stem on my 1998 Waterford lugged steel bike. But if I was buying a new bike today, or having a custom bike made, I would insist on a 1.125" threadless fork with threadless stem. Unless I was having a custom lugged steel frame built, then I might insist on a threaded 1" steel fork and quill stem because it is appropriate.

Kind of like if I was buying a new car today, I would insist on fuel injection and keyless entry and electric locks. But on a 1960s Stingray, a carburetor, hole in the door to stick the key, and manual pull up and push down locks are appropriate.
AMuzi
2021-03-30 19:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com
Post by Frank Krygowski
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I'm not bothered by a 1" threaded fork either. Its the right fork with an aluminum TTT quill stem on my 1998 Waterford lugged steel bike. But if I was buying a new bike today, or having a custom bike made, I would insist on a 1.125" threadless fork with threadless stem. Unless I was having a custom lugged steel frame built, then I might insist on a threaded 1" steel fork and quill stem because it is appropriate.
Kind of like if I was buying a new car today, I would insist on fuel injection and keyless entry and electric locks. But on a 1960s Stingray, a carburetor, hole in the door to stick the key, and manual pull up and push down locks are appropriate.
Good, but better is to weld up the door lock holes and add
the kill switch under the dash. I almost never lock a car.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Sir Ridesalot
2021-03-30 19:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I have never seen a threaded stem. I've seen and own lots of stems for a fork that uses a threaded headset though.

Terminology is important as many here say.

Cheers
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-31 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I have never seen a threaded stem. I've seen and own lots of stems for a fork that uses a threaded headset though.
Terminology is important as many here say.
Ah, good point.

And you may have just inspired another headset standard! We're running
low on them, you know.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
2021-03-31 13:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I have never seen a threaded stem. I've seen and own lots of stems for a fork that uses a threaded headset though.
Terminology is important as many here say.
Ah, good point.
And you may have just inspired another headset standard! We're running
low on them, you know.
This was another of those threads that slipped so far off subject that it has become useless. Russell wanted to know the value of a Schwinn Titanium that was built originally for Schwinn by Serotta. As I said, if it lasted that long it didn't have any O2 or N2 inclusions so it is probably good for the lifetime of the buyer. If it needs a new fork Look makes the best carbon fiber forks with the very highest standard and quality control. I wouldn't hesitate to use one myself despite the almost fatal consequences of using an IRS fork.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-31 17:43:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I have never seen a threaded stem. I've seen and own lots of stems for a fork that uses a threaded headset though.
Terminology is important as many here say.
Ah, good point.
And you may have just inspired another headset standard! We're running
low on them, you know.
This was another of those threads that slipped so far off subject that it has become useless.
Right! By now it should instead have morphed into a rant about how Biden
caused the fake coronavirus when he was vice president due to the
rampant election fraud in 2008 when you were inventing the International
Space Station.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
2021-03-31 18:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I have never seen a threaded stem. I've seen and own lots of stems for a fork that uses a threaded headset though.
Terminology is important as many here say.
Ah, good point.
And you may have just inspired another headset standard! We're running
low on them, you know.
This was another of those threads that slipped so far off subject that it has become useless.
Right! By now it should instead have morphed into a rant about how Biden
caused the fake coronavirus when he was vice president due to the
rampant election fraud in 2008 when you were inventing the International
Space Station.
So as usual you're saying that a titanium frame is a useless piece of junk that couldn't possibly have any value. Frank, everyone should take your sage advice because you never fail in the lurch.
funkma...@hotmail.com
2021-04-01 12:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Sir Ridesalot
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by AMuzi
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1"
threaded stem. As Russell said, there's nothing terrible
about that. If there were, I'd have to sell a bunch of
bikes. We can discuss details, but the advantages of
threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were
not mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or
current" were, and without specifics, those are fashion words.
It's actually more than fashion sometimes. Campagnolo EXA-8
cassettes for example. Or Shimano UG cassettes. Or either of
Gary Klein's unique stem formats. I could go on. There are
systems friends don't let friends buy on craigslist.
No doubt, there are bad choices that people can be made. But those choices aren't avoided
by buying what's "modern and current." As just one example: For quite a few years it was possible
to go very wrong by buying "this year's bottom bracket." (How many "standards" are there now?)
- Frank Krygowski
OK. Maybe "modern and current" was not the best choice of words. But "still and for the prior 20 years commonly used parts" doesn't sound as good. Think of tires. 700C is the road standard now. But 27" and 650C were made too. And 650B is in there somewhere too. And with mountain bikes, the standard is 26" and/or 29"(700C). If anyone asked me, I'd say buy a 700C road bike today. For mountain, I'm not too familiar so not sure if 26" or 29"(700C) is the way to go. And my "modern and current" terminology was more applicable to the bigger, main parts. Like fork size, 1.125". Seatpost size, 27.2 or 31.8. Type of stem, threadless. Wheel diameter size, 700C. And English threaded bottom brackets.
That all sounds pretty reasonable, although with some room for
individual choice. Specifically, a 1" threaded stem wouldn't bother me
in the slightest. In general, I'm not keen on keeping current with
modern fashion just to be fashionable. It's not hard to cite fashionable
"improvements" that are minor indeed, or even detrimental on balance.
--
- Frank Krygowski
I have never seen a threaded stem. I've seen and own lots of stems for a fork that uses a threaded headset though.
Terminology is important as many here say.
Ah, good point.
And you may have just inspired another headset standard! We're running
low on them, you know.
This was another of those threads that slipped so far off subject that it has become useless.
Right! By now it should instead have morphed into a rant about how Biden
caused the fake coronavirus when he was vice president due to the
rampant election fraud in 2008 when you were inventing the International
Space Station.
So as usual you're saying that a titanium frame is a useless piece of junk that couldn't possibly have any value. Frank, everyone should take your sage advice because you never fail in the lurch.
Well, given the choice of Franks' expertise over your pathetic version.....
Tom Kunich
2021-03-30 00:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Why get locked into old technology and have to find work-arounds, like the quill stem adapter? And this should appeal to you, why get a bicycle with limited tire clearance? How about gear range? If I were looking for an all-in-one bike, it wouldn't be a 23 year old Ti racing frame with a 1" threaded steel steerer. I also would not get Campy, but that is only because all my wheels are set-up for Shimano. If I wanted something fast and cheap, it would be a CAAD 13. And if I wanted something versatile, it would be a Trek Checkpoint. I'm sure the Serotta/Paramount was a fine bike, but there are plenty of reasons for preferring something more current besides "fashion."
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1" threaded stem. As
Russell said, there's nothing terrible about that. If there were, I'd
have to sell a bunch of bikes. We can discuss details, but the
advantages of threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were not
mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or current" were, and
without specifics, those are fashion words.
--
- Frank Krygowski
If you have a threaded stem that fits you that is fine. But if it is a bike you're just fitting to yourself you can't really get those old fashion stems very easily. Everything is threadless stems now.
AMuzi
2021-03-30 00:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike
I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Why get locked into old technology and have to find work-arounds, like the quill stem adapter? And this should appeal to you, why get a bicycle with limited tire clearance? How about gear range? If I were looking for an all-in-one bike, it wouldn't be a 23 year old Ti racing frame with a 1" threaded steel steerer. I also would not get Campy, but that is only because all my wheels are set-up for Shimano. If I wanted something fast and cheap, it would be a CAAD 13. And if I wanted something versatile, it would be a Trek Checkpoint. I'm sure the Serotta/Paramount was a fine bike, but there are plenty of reasons for preferring something more current besides "fashion."
I have absolutely no problem being "locked into" a 1" threaded stem. As
Russell said, there's nothing terrible about that. If there were, I'd
have to sell a bunch of bikes. We can discuss details, but the
advantages of threadless are minor to the rider.
Other issues you mentioned (tire clearance, gear range) were not
mentioned by Russell or me. Not being "modern or current" were, and
without specifics, those are fashion words.
--
- Frank Krygowski
If you have a threaded stem that fits you that is fine. But if it is a bike you're just fitting to yourself you can't really get those old fashion stems very easily. Everything is threadless stems now.
You would be surprised. The range of length, height and
angle is much broader for quills even today.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tom Kunich
2021-03-29 17:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Particularly when you can go to one of the Titanium manufacturers and buy a new threadless fork. I think that threadless is miles better, but like Andrew says, the adapter works fine.
jbeattie
2021-03-29 17:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Particularly when you can go to one of the Titanium manufacturers and buy a new threadless fork. I think that threadless is miles better, but like Andrew says, the adapter works fine.
FYI. From the DPR PDX: https://www.retro-gression.com/collections/forks I've never even heard of this place, but it has a mind-boggling number of 1" steerer forks. I'd buy this one even though I don't have a 1" steerer bike. https://www.retro-gression.com/collections/forks/products/straight-blade-lugged-threadless-fork (WTF, file down to 26.4?) Note the weight -- about the weight of your Look frame. I could use it for home defense.

-- Jay Beattie.
AMuzi
2021-03-29 19:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by jbeattie
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike
I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
Post by jbeattie
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Particularly when you can go to one of the Titanium manufacturers and buy a new threadless fork. I think that threadless is miles better, but like Andrew says, the adapter works fine.
FYI. From the DPR PDX: https://www.retro-gression.com/collections/forks I've never even heard of this place, but it has a mind-boggling number of 1" steerer forks. I'd buy this one even though I don't have a 1" steerer bike. https://www.retro-gression.com/collections/forks/products/straight-blade-lugged-threadless-fork (WTF, file down to 26.4?) Note the weight -- about the weight of your Look frame. I could use it for home defense.
-- Jay Beattie.
on sale too. We sell that fork for $99, popular item.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-30 03:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
Particularly when you can go to one of the Titanium manufacturers and buy a new threadless fork. I think that threadless is miles better, but like Andrew says, the adapter works fine.
I am not a fan of adaptors. Unless you are forced to use them. Particularly when you can get what you "want" right from the start. Just buy a bike with a threadless fork fitted at the factory that accepts the ubiquitous threadless stems used by everyone today. Buying replacement forks is possible, yes. But it adds $200-300-400 extra dollars? Why buy a "new" bike and then immediately start making costly changes to get what you really want? Its better to just buy a different "new" bike that is a lot closer to what you really want.
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-30 04:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
- Frank Krygowski
I need to clarify a few things. My friend is a bicyclist. He has ridden several long brevets. A 600k with me about ten years ago when he had some mechanical troubles in the middle of nowhere and I was able to fix the bike on the side of the road and we were able to continue. Give myself some accolades. He has also ridden/run/swim several ironman length triathlons years ago. And run several marathons too. Also years ago. But he does not live, breathe, die bicycles like the folks on this forum. His Trek carbon Ultegra bike was destroyed in a car crash several years ago. So he is getting around to getting a replacement. He has one or two other bikes with mechanical Shimano. But they are not light racing bikes. So he needs a "racing" bike to replace the Trek.

For my friend, not Frank, not me, not Tom, not Jay probably, he needs a regular standard common modern bike. Such as Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale with Shimano and 11 speed. Preferably carbon but titanium is great too. Threadless fork in 1.125" so every stem and bars fit it. 27.2 or 31.8 seatpost. Not 27.4 like my Waterford which only has an American Classic as its only seatpost option on earth. Disc or caliper brakes, both are good. I'd like him to go Di2 since I have a Di2 bike and love it. And think the future is electronic. Just a generic racing bike that anyone and everyone can get parts for if needed. That just works with no thought at all.

An analogy for the bike he/I were considering. The 20 year old Schwinn/Serotta titanium bike with 1" threaded fork and Campagnolo Super Record mechanical. Frank, I am assuming you have a kid. I know Jay has a son. Imagine they turned 16 and you got them their first car. Free. A 1970s VW Beetle convertible with manual. Not sure there was any option on the transmission. It needs to be cleaned up a lot. But it runs and is OK. Amazingly. Now, you see the potential in this car and its history. And want to feel like you are in high school again. But your kid looks at the car and says NO, I want a 2010 Beetle!!!! A cool looking car to kids today. And has an engine in the front, is front wheel drive, and has a CD/radio/Sirius WiFi BlueTooth entertainment system.

For a teenage kid, one car makes more sense than the other. Even though both are fine cars. Sort of. Maybe 10, 20, 30 years from now if the kid wants to get into classic, esoteric cars, fine and great. But right now, the kid needs a "safe" working car that is reliable. Kind of like my friend needs a good, fast, racing, light, modern bike that goes with no worry about any parts. A ride and not think about it kind of bike.
Frank Krygowski
2021-03-30 14:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
- Frank Krygowski
I need to clarify a few things. My friend is a bicyclist. He has ridden several long brevets. A 600k with me about ten years ago when he had some mechanical troubles in the middle of nowhere and I was able to fix the bike on the side of the road and we were able to continue. Give myself some accolades. He has also ridden/run/swim several ironman length triathlons years ago. And run several marathons too. Also years ago. But he does not live, breathe, die bicycles like the folks on this forum. His Trek carbon Ultegra bike was destroyed in a car crash several years ago. So he is getting around to getting a replacement. He has one or two other bikes with mechanical Shimano. But they are not light racing bikes. So he needs a "racing" bike to replace the Trek.
For my friend, not Frank, not me, not Tom, not Jay probably, he needs a regular standard common modern bike. Such as Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale with Shimano and 11 speed. Preferably carbon but titanium is great too. Threadless fork in 1.125" so every stem and bars fit it. 27.2 or 31.8 seatpost. Not 27.4 like my Waterford which only has an American Classic as its only seatpost option on earth. Disc or caliper brakes, both are good. I'd like him to go Di2 since I have a Di2 bike and love it. And think the future is electronic. Just a generic racing bike that anyone and everyone can get parts for if needed. That just works with no thought at all.
Well, that's fine. But if you want your friend to have the latest Di2, I
don't understand why you're considering the old Serotta with that Campy
system.
--
- Frank Krygowski
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-30 18:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Krygowski
Post by Frank Krygowski
I have a hard time accepting "The bike is not modern and current
[fashion] so don't buy it."
- Frank Krygowski
I need to clarify a few things. My friend is a bicyclist. He has ridden several long brevets. A 600k with me about ten years ago when he had some mechanical troubles in the middle of nowhere and I was able to fix the bike on the side of the road and we were able to continue. Give myself some accolades. He has also ridden/run/swim several ironman length triathlons years ago. And run several marathons too. Also years ago. But he does not live, breathe, die bicycles like the folks on this forum. His Trek carbon Ultegra bike was destroyed in a car crash several years ago. So he is getting around to getting a replacement. He has one or two other bikes with mechanical Shimano. But they are not light racing bikes. So he needs a "racing" bike to replace the Trek.
For my friend, not Frank, not me, not Tom, not Jay probably, he needs a regular standard common modern bike. Such as Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale with Shimano and 11 speed. Preferably carbon but titanium is great too. Threadless fork in 1.125" so every stem and bars fit it. 27.2 or 31.8 seatpost. Not 27.4 like my Waterford which only has an American Classic as its only seatpost option on earth. Disc or caliper brakes, both are good. I'd like him to go Di2 since I have a Di2 bike and love it. And think the future is electronic. Just a generic racing bike that anyone and everyone can get parts for if needed. That just works with no thought at all.
Well, that's fine. But if you want your friend to have the latest Di2, I
don't understand why you're considering the old Serotta with that Campy
system.
--
- Frank Krygowski
My friend notified me about the older Schwinn, Serotta bike with Super Record. Not me telling him about it. He wanted my opinion on it and an assessment of the asking price on eBay Buy it Now. It is not a bike I would have picked out for him to consider. My friend had a carbon Trek with mechanical Ultegra from early 2000s I think. So I expect, want him to get a comparable bike except 10-15 years newer. And electronic.
Tom Kunich
2021-03-29 17:36:06 UTC
Permalink
I have a friend who is looking at a used bike to buy. Maybe. I am trying to figure out if the price is good or bad. Its a Very good looking, well maintained 1998 60th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount titanium built by Serotta. I think its 1998 but maybe its 1999 or 2000 since Schwinn made the 60th Anniversary bikes for 3 or 4 years. Titanium Serotta frame and Time carbon fork. Painted blue. Campagnolo Super Record 11 speed mechanical. Campagnolo Zonda clincher wheels and Continental tires. Carbon Record seatpost. Selle Italia saddle. Cinelli aluminum threadless stem. Handlebars of some kind. Size being sold is perfect fit for my friend.
I am not sure of what age the 11 speed Super Record is. Not sure that really matters too much since Campagnolo is now onto 12 speed and I doubt there was any change during the 11 speed run. Everything looks brand new. But its not. It is used of course.
20 year old Serotta titanium frames with carbon Time fork. I know Serotta is famous but I don't know how much 20 year old titanium Serottas are worth. And ideas? And then add in the slightly old, used Super Record 11 speed mechanical shifting, and cheaper Zonda wheels. Value?
What is a 20 year old Serotta titanium frame/fork worth? Its not brushed titanium with the Serotta name on it. Its painted pretty blue and has Schwinn on the frame. Friend cannot buy just the frame/fork alone. He has to buy everything as a package. In this case that actually might be bad luck.
Thanks to the folks who commented on my questions about a 20 year old titanium Schwinn Paramount made by Serotta. Unfortunately the original topic got abandoned. I have emailed my friend to be very cautious about acquiring the bike. Positives are it was made by Serotta. 20 year old titanium is just as good today as when new. But negatives are it has a threaded fork. 1 inch. Nothing terrible about that. I have several bikes like that. But its not modern and current. And to make the bike right, you would have to buy a good quill stem. And maybe new bars too for the quill stem clamping size. Probably adding an extra $100 for bars and stem. Bike currently has Super Record 11 speed mechanical. I love Campy. I have four Campy 9 and 10 speed bikes. But I would not recommend it today. I'd advise everyone to stay with Shimano today. So there is the problem of selling used Super Record parts. And hopefully replacing them with electronic Ultegra Di2. For my friend to end up with the bike I think he needs, there is just too many issues to deal with to make it worthwhile monetarily.
After five Di2 bikes I wouldn't recommend them. They ARE nice shifting but it isn't as if manual shifting is such a problem. And manual shifting does not have the problems that Di2 does of losing the programming if you have to remove the battery for any reason. My external Di2 worked perfectly but after removing the external battery to recharge it, I haven't been able to get it to work correctly since. I suppose I can bring the bike into the computer room here and connect the programming device and go through the setup again and will when I get the other bikes out of the way. But this couldn't happen with a manual setup. Also, 8 speeds were perfect. But the pro racers used to stop at the bottom of the hard climbs and change to climbing bikes with smaller gearing. Armstrong asked for a 9th speed so that he wouldn't have to stop and he then pulled out large leads doing this. This started the entire "more speeds is better" bullshit. Maybe 9 speeds are OK but 11, 12, 13 and 14 are NOT. The latest Di2 is 12 speeds and you can bet that next year it will be 13. The ONLY reason that I have 10 speeds is that I like the carbon levers because they are so much lighter. You could use these on 9's but it is easy for the limit screws to move and then you'd throw the chain off of the cogset. If Campy made a carbon 9 speed today I would use it rather than the 10. And my shifting to get in the correct gear would be reduced a LOT.
russellseaton1@yahoo.com
2021-03-30 04:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
After five Di2 bikes I wouldn't recommend them. They ARE nice shifting but it isn't as if manual shifting is such a problem. And manual shifting does not have the problems that Di2 does of losing the programming if you have to remove the battery for any reason. My external Di2 worked perfectly but after removing the external battery to recharge it, I haven't been able to get it to work correctly since. I suppose I can bring the bike into the computer room here and connect the programming device and go through the setup again and will when I get the other bikes out of the way. But this couldn't happen with a manual setup. Also, 8 speeds were perfect. But the pro racers used to stop at the bottom of the hard climbs and change to climbing bikes with smaller gearing. Armstrong asked for a 9th speed so that he wouldn't have to stop and he then pulled out large leads doing this. This started the entire "more speeds is better" bullshit. Maybe 9 speeds are OK but 11, 12, 13 and 14 are NOT. The latest Di2 is 12 speeds and you can bet that next year it will be 13. The ONLY reason that I have 10 speeds is that I like the carbon levers because they are so much lighter. You could use these on 9's but it is easy for the limit screws to move and then you'd throw the chain off of the cogset. If Campy made a carbon 9 speed today I would use it rather than the 10. And my shifting to get in the correct gear would be reduced a LOT.
I only have a Shimano 7970 10 speed electronic bike. And lots of Campagnolo 9 and 10 mechanical, and Shimano 10 mechanical. I have recharged the battery numerous times. Once every two or three years. Never a problem. In fact I am not sure I have ever had any problem ever with the Di2 bike. I got it shifting perfectly ten years ago and it has shifted perfectly ever since. Its even more reliable than my mechanical shifting bikes. Every once in awhile I turn the adjuster barrel on the cable one turn on the mechanical bikes. Then usually turn it back after a mile! Maybe the newer 11 speed Di2 bikes have more problems like you mention. Shimano got the original pretty close to perfect. Thus my "like", "love" of Di2. I think its the future and want my friend to have the best of the best now. So I recommend Shimano Di2 for his next bike.
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