Garmin Edge 830 elevation issues

[Ted Heise]

Hi all,

I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very few
(if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the altimeter
has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its stored home
location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride, but then it
starts climbing on its own and then descending--with no reflection
of the real elevation.

Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I never
saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...

https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646

and here's the proper profile from the route...

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480

Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I haven't
tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

[Roger Merriman]

Post by Ted Heise
Hi all,
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very few
(if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the altimeter
has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its stored home
location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride, but then it
starts climbing on its own and then descending--with no reflection
of the real elevation.
Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I never
saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646
and here's the proper profile from the route...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I haven't
tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

The only time I’ve had some funky elevation is thunderstorms or rather a
significant pressure change as front moves in.

Roger Merriman

[Ted Heise]

On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 04:58:13 GMT,

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Ted Heise
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very
few (if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the
altimeter has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its
stored home location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride,
but then it starts climbing on its own and then
descending--with no reflection of the real elevation.
Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I
never saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646
and here's the proper profile from the route...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I
haven't tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

The only time I’ve had some funky elevation is thunderstorms or
rather a significant pressure change as front moves in.

Yeah, I've seen that behavior as well when there have been fronts
come through, but this is not in any way related to actual changes
in barometric pressure.

I reset the device last night (pain in the rear) and thought it
was okay--the reported elevation held pretty steady. This morning
it did too with the unit just turned on, but when I had it start
recording the elevation started incorrectly increasing again.

[Tom KunichFirmware updAtes]

Post by Ted Heise
On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 04:58:13 GMT,

Post by Ted Heise
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very
few (if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the
altimeter has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its
stored home location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride,
but then it starts climbing on its own and then
descending--with no reflection of the real elevation.
Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I
never saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646
and here's the proper profile from the route...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I
haven't tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

The only time I?ve had some funky elevation is thunderstorms or
rather a significant pressure change as front moves in.

Yeah, I've seen that behavior as well when there have been fronts
come through, but this is not in any way related to actual changes
in barometric pressure.
I reset the device last night (pain in the rear) and thought it
was okay--the reported elevation held pretty steady. This morning
it did too with the unit just turned on, but when I had it start
recording the elevation started incorrectly increasing again.
--

Firmware updates can really screw the operation of the 830 up. Check back after you've tested it now.

[Ted Heise]

On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 14:57:26 GMT,

Post by Tom KunichFirmware updAtes

Post by Ted Heise
On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 04:58:13 GMT,

Post by Ted Heise
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with
very few (if any) real problems, but the last couple of
rides the altimeter has gone crazy. It takes the
elevation for its stored home location (692 ft) just fine
when I start the ride, but then it starts climbing on its
own and then descending--with no reflection of the real
elevation.

The only time I?ve had some funky elevation is
thunderstorms or rather a significant pressure change as
front moves in.

Yeah, I've seen that behavior as well when there have been
fronts come through, but this is not in any way related to
actual changes in barometric pressure.
I reset the device last night (pain in the rear) and thought
it was okay--the reported elevation held pretty steady. This
morning it did too with the unit just turned on, but when I
had it start recording the elevation started incorrectly
increasing again.

Well, it seemed to mostly work okay on my ride today, though it
autopaused once when I was NOT stopped and also popped up a
submenu a couple of times when I had not pressed the touch screen.
This latter could possibly have been from a drop of sweat landing
on the screen, I suppose. No idea about the stray autopause.

I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

Post by Tom KunichFirmware updAtes
Firmware updates can really screw the operation of the 830 up.
Check back after you've tested it now.

Yeah, I thought of that but the last firmware update was some time
back--many months.

[AMuzi]

Post by Ted Heise
On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 14:57:26 GMT,

Post by Tom KunichFirmware updAtes

Post by Ted Heise
On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 04:58:13 GMT,

Post by Ted Heise
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with
very few (if any) real problems, but the last couple of
rides the altimeter has gone crazy. It takes the
elevation for its stored home location (692 ft) just fine
when I start the ride, but then it starts climbing on its
own and then descending--with no reflection of the real
elevation.

The only time I?ve had some funky elevation is
thunderstorms or rather a significant pressure change as
front moves in.

Yeah, I've seen that behavior as well when there have been
fronts come through, but this is not in any way related to
actual changes in barometric pressure.
I reset the device last night (pain in the rear) and thought
it was okay--the reported elevation held pretty steady. This
morning it did too with the unit just turned on, but when I
had it start recording the elevation started incorrectly
increasing again.

Well, it seemed to mostly work okay on my ride today, though it
autopaused once when I was NOT stopped and also popped up a
submenu a couple of times when I had not pressed the touch screen.
This latter could possibly have been from a drop of sweat landing
on the screen, I suppose. No idea about the stray autopause.
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

Post by Tom KunichFirmware updAtes
Firmware updates can really screw the operation of the 830 up.
Check back after you've tested it now.

Yeah, I thought of that but the last firmware update was some time
back--many months.

I don't know from Garmin but other electronic devices do
indeed grow 'demons' when there's moisture inside the case.

Try a closed container with silica gel or:

https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/wet-iphone-or-android-skip-the-rice-and-try-these-methods-to-dry-it-out/

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

That's a good possibility:

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.

Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).

The Edge 830 has a IPX7 water rating:
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"

In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.

Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.

Good luck.

[Ted Heise]

On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 15:54:17 -0700,

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a
few days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out.
Who knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1
meter for up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or
snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water
even though the spec hints that it can be done. That also
includes a puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on
the faceplate caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or
standing water on any joint in the pastic case.
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to
open the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that
will help it recover.

As usual, Ifixit has instructions for opening the case. I've
folowed their steps for some notebook computer battery and drive
replacements and have had very good luck. So I have a pretty high
opinion of their info. Still, this procedure looks daunting--not
sure I'm brave enough to tackle it. On top of that, I suspect the
glue seal would never bre as good once reassembled--assuming I
could even get through the process.

So I think I'll just leave it in front of a fan overnight. Maybe
a couple of overnights. If that doesn't get it all the way back
to normal, I search out the silica gel that Andrew suggested.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea
what was causing the problem and didn't think of water
incursion until you mentioned it.
Good luck.

No worries, and thanks! (and to Andrew)

[Frank Krygowski]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks).

It's a bit interesting that the same problem can apparently happen with
hub dynamos. Supposedly, the SON hub dynamos (from Germany) have a
pressure compensation gizmo built into them to prevent that mechanism
from rusting the insides of the hub.

[Rolf Mantel]

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.

Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C.  Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water.  The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks).

It's a bit interesting that the same problem can apparently happen with
hub dynamos. Supposedly, the SON hub dynamos (from Germany) have a
pressure compensation gizmo built into them to prevent that mechanism
from rusting the insides of the hub.

From the mechanism, it can happen with any bicycle hub: park the bike
inside (20C) in winter, use the bike in the wet around 0C.
It's just that SON is IIRC the only hub expensive enough to have
detected and offered a fix to this problem.

Rolf

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Rolf Mantel

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.

Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C.  Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water.  The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks).

It's a bit interesting that the same problem can apparently happen with
hub dynamos. Supposedly, the SON hub dynamos (from Germany) have a
pressure compensation gizmo built into them to prevent that mechanism
from rusting the insides of the hub.

From the mechanism, it can happen with any bicycle hub: park the bike
inside (20C) in winter, use the bike in the wet around 0C.
It's just that SON is IIRC the only hub expensive enough to have
detected and offered a fix to this problem.
Rolf

I ran into the problem in the marine radio business. Obviously, the
marine environment is very wet (and corrosive). Humidity is high and
the difference between air and water temperatures can be large. Any
enclosed box will eventually collect condensed moisture. In general,
there are two ways to deal with the problem:

1. Seal the enclosure and pressurize it to be slightly above
atmospheric pressure using dry air.
2. Design a safe path for the water to exit the enclosure and do
something to reduce corrosive effects.

Neither are a complete answer to the problem. A pressurized enclosure
works nicely, but make service and repairs difficult. Just opening
the enclosure in a high humidity environment will produce
condensation.

Adding drain holes is worse. Bicycles usually have drain holes on the
bottom of the bottom bracket to drain any condensed water from the
frame. That's fine until someone hangs their bicycle vertically on a
wall or parks it inverted on the handlebars. The hole also tends to
become plugged with greasy dirt.

There are plenty of other solutions (desiccants, inert gases,
conformal coatings, oil baths, immersion in oil, regular teardown
maintenance, etc). They all work but also need to be designed into
the product. Randomly drilling holes in your hub to drain the water
isn't going to work very well.

For electronics and sensors the problem is more complicated. Air
pressure sensors require open access to the atmosphere. Some SMD
(surface mount devices) such as clock crystals are sensitive to air
pressure. To equalize the pressure, the manufacturer drills a
microscopic hole in the case. That works, except the clock frequency
changes while the air is slooooowly leaking though the hold. Apple
had that problem on some iPhone models. I suspect that Garmin and
others are aware of such problems and settled on the most reasonable
protection solution that doesn't involve complex and expensive
solutions.

[Frank Krygowski]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Any
enclosed box will eventually collect condensed moisture.

I had that problem when I welded up rails for our then-new balcony. I
used 1" square steel tube for the vertical corners, sealed (I thought)
at the top as well as the bottom. A few years later I noticed the bottom
of the tubes were bulging. Water had accumulated and apparently froze
and expanded in the winter. When I drilled after-the-fact drain holes, I
was surprised at the amount of water that poured out.

[AMuzi]

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Jeff Liebermann
 Any
enclosed box will eventually collect condensed moisture.

I had that problem when I welded up rails for our then-new
balcony. I used 1" square steel tube for the vertical
corners, sealed (I thought) at the top as well as the
bottom. A few years later I noticed the bottom of the tubes
were bulging. Water had accumulated and apparently froze and
expanded in the winter. When I drilled after-the-fact drain
holes, I was surprised at the amount of water that poured out.

+1 same phenomenon with our welded steel railing. Same solution.

This is also seen in 'unvented' steel frames/forks. Water
always gets in and, if there's no vent, trouble ensues. This
top tube had blocked drainholes at seat and head; small and
badly positioned, blocked by post and head cup:

Loading Image...

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I suspect that Garmin and
others are aware of such problems and settled on the most reasonable
protection solution that doesn't involve complex and expensive
solutions.

Various vendors offer waterproof "dry bags".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gps+mobile+phone+dry+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.amazon.com/Pelican-Marine-IP68-Waterproof-Dry/dp/B0B52B5MGC>
These were intended for cell phones work well for hand-held GPS
receivers. Do NOT buy the bags with radiation shields, IR blocking or
reflective plastic. These will block the signal from the satellites
to the GPS.

How to mount the Garmin Edge 830 in a bag on a bicycle might be a
challenge. Rubber bands, elastic bands or packing tape will work, but
are rather ugly.

[AMuzi]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I suspect that Garmin and
others are aware of such problems and settled on the most reasonable
protection solution that doesn't involve complex and expensive
solutions.

Various vendors offer waterproof "dry bags".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gps+mobile+phone+dry+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.amazon.com/Pelican-Marine-IP68-Waterproof-Dry/dp/B0B52B5MGC>
These were intended for cell phones work well for hand-held GPS
receivers. Do NOT buy the bags with radiation shields, IR blocking or
reflective plastic. These will block the signal from the satellites
to the GPS.
How to mount the Garmin Edge 830 in a bag on a bicycle might be a
challenge. Rubber bands, elastic bands or packing tape will work, but
are rather ugly.

It's a well populated product area:

https://bikase.com/products/traikase-phone-holder

https://bikase.com/products/elastokase-quick-release-mount-universal-for-any-phone

[Roger Merriman]

Post by AMuzi

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I suspect that Garmin and
others are aware of such problems and settled on the most reasonable
protection solution that doesn't involve complex and expensive
solutions.

Various vendors offer waterproof "dry bags".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gps+mobile+phone+dry+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.amazon.com/Pelican-Marine-IP68-Waterproof-Dry/dp/B0B52B5MGC>
These were intended for cell phones work well for hand-held GPS
receivers. Do NOT buy the bags with radiation shields, IR blocking or
reflective plastic. These will block the signal from the satellites
to the GPS.
How to mount the Garmin Edge 830 in a bag on a bicycle might be a
challenge. Rubber bands, elastic bands or packing tape will work, but
are rather ugly.

https://bikase.com/products/traikase-phone-holder
https://bikase.com/products/elastokase-quick-release-mount-universal-for-any-phone

Neither would hold an Edge 830 securely, I guess one could put a hair net
etc over it on the mount.

This said I’ve never had a unit fail from water ingress.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Post by AMuzi

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I suspect that Garmin and
others are aware of such problems and settled on the most reasonable
protection solution that doesn't involve complex and expensive
solutions.

Various vendors offer waterproof "dry bags".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gps+mobile+phone+dry+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.amazon.com/Pelican-Marine-IP68-Waterproof-Dry/dp/B0B52B5MGC>
These were intended for cell phones work well for hand-held GPS
receivers. Do NOT buy the bags with radiation shields, IR blocking or
reflective plastic. These will block the signal from the satellites
to the GPS.
How to mount the Garmin Edge 830 in a bag on a bicycle might be a
challenge. Rubber bands, elastic bands or packing tape will work, but
are rather ugly.

https://bikase.com/products/traikase-phone-holder
https://bikase.com/products/elastokase-quick-release-mount-universal-for-any-phone
--
Andrew Muzi
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The technology for buiolding weatherproof hand devices is seriously mature. I have dropped my Galaxy a dozen times including into puddles. The screen is cracked in three places and it works fine. I have had to shut it off once for a incomplete update restart. The only problem is the battery has short life.

I would think that Liebermann never being able to make a living would limit people's belief in his claims of expertise but I have finally accepted that there is one born every minute for Liebermann to use.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Fri, 02 Aug 2024 08:47:46 -0700 schrieb Jeff Liebermann

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I suspect that Garmin and
others are aware of such problems and settled on the most reasonable
protection solution that doesn't involve complex and expensive
solutions.

Various vendors offer waterproof "dry bags".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=gps+mobile+phone+dry+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.amazon.com/Pelican-Marine-IP68-Waterproof-Dry/dp/B0B52B5MGC>
These were intended for cell phones work well for hand-held GPS
receivers. Do NOT buy the bags with radiation shields, IR blocking or
reflective plastic. These will block the signal from the satellites
to the GPS.

Ortlieb, a German maker of a series of bicycling bags, produces a
waterproof bag for their Ultimate handlebar bag
<https://www.ortlieb.com/usa_en/ultimate+F3131>
specifically for Garmins GPSmap series of GPS devices.

Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet anymore and some
reasons to avoid it. But I did a lot of riding in the rain on my
commute and during vacations.

<Loading Image...>
<Loading Image...>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
<https://www.google.de/maps/@43.3632593,2.6300401,3a,79.5y,264h,76.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sz3iFFh4NezN4f2JhbT2bnA!2e0!5s20110301T000000!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205409&entry=ttu
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

Post by Jeff Liebermann
How to mount the Garmin Edge 830 in a bag on a bicycle might be a
challenge. Rubber bands, elastic bands or packing tape will work, but
are rather ugly.

Mounting the Ortliebs GPS case on top of my Ultimate Classic worked
quite well.

Ortlieb still sells both the large map case
<https://www.ortlieb.com/usa_en/ultimate-map-case>
and the smaller bag, called "Safe-it" and somewhat hard to find without
knowing that name.

<https://www.ortlieb.com/usa_en/safe-it+D2111>

Needs a separate attachement kit for mounting on the Ultimate Classic.

"attachment set (Article No. F1420) for mounting your Safe-it to
Ultimate handlebar bags (except for the Ultimate Compact) available on
request"

[Frank Krygowski]

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet anymore and some
reasons to avoid it. But I did a lot of riding in the rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland by bicycle.
It was the wettest experience of my life.

Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic to Pacific.
For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.

It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so uncomfortable. It's
as if we evolved on a planet where rain didn't happen.

[AMuzi]

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet
anymore and some
reasons to avoid it.  But I did a lot of riding in the
rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland
by bicycle. It was the wettest experience of my life.
Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic
to Pacific. For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.
It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so
uncomfortable. It's as if we evolved on a planet where rain
didn't happen.

Cyclist's secret: Humans are drip dry!

[Frank Krygowski]

Post by AMuzi

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet anymore and some
reasons to avoid it.  But I did a lot of riding in the rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/
img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/
IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
<https://www.google.de/maps/
@43.3632593,2.6300401,3a,79.5y,264h,76.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!
1sz3iFFh4NezN4f2JhbT2bnA!2e0!5s20110301T000000!7i13312!8i6656?
coh=205409&entry=ttu
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland by bicycle.
It was the wettest experience of my life.
Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic to Pacific.
For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.
It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so uncomfortable.
It's as if we evolved on a planet where rain didn't happen.

Cyclist's secret: Humans are drip dry!

True. But I'm miserable while dripping.

I took part in a group hike this morning. Not very hot, but the humidity
was such that I was literally dripping, very uncomfortably, at the end,
just as I was at the end of yesterday's club ride.

At least on a bike, there's relative air motion.

[Catrike Ryder]

On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 16:45:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by AMuzi

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet anymore and some
reasons to avoid it.  But I did a lot of riding in the rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/
img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/
IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
<https://www.google.de/maps/
@43.3632593,2.6300401,3a,79.5y,264h,76.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!
1sz3iFFh4NezN4f2JhbT2bnA!2e0!5s20110301T000000!7i13312!8i6656?
coh=205409&entry=ttu
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland by bicycle.
It was the wettest experience of my life.
Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic to Pacific.
For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.
It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so uncomfortable.
It's as if we evolved on a planet where rain didn't happen.

Cyclist's secret: Humans are drip dry!

True. But I'm miserable while dripping.

Not me. Working hard enough to be dripping sweat is glorious.

Post by Frank Krygowski
I took part in a group hike this morning. Not very hot, but the humidity
was such that I was literally dripping, very uncomfortably, at the end,
just as I was at the end of yesterday's club ride.
At least on a bike, there's relative air motion.

I don't feel right unless I have a sport to play or at least a way to
work up a sweat.
-- Hank Aaron

[Catrike Ryder]

Post by AMuzi

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet
anymore and some
reasons to avoid it.  But I did a lot of riding in the
rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland
by bicycle. It was the wettest experience of my life.
Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic
to Pacific. For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.
It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so
uncomfortable. It's as if we evolved on a planet where rain
didn't happen.

Cyclist's secret: Humans are drip dry!

When it's 95 degrees, a little shower is very pleasant.

[cyclintom]

Post by AMuzi

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet
anymore and some
reasons to avoid it. But I did a lot of riding in the
rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland
by bicycle. It was the wettest experience of my life.
Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic
to Pacific. For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.
It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so
uncomfortable. It's as if we evolved on a planet where rain
didn't happen.

Cyclist's secret: Humans are drip dry!
--
Andrew Muzi
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I've been caught out in the rain enough times to dry out before I got home. Libermann said I was lying when I said that rim brakes can lock the wheels on a bike. Coming down the hill from the central valley into Livermore or Castro Valley even, the rain has been pouring and while I was careful to scrub the water off by early application of the brakes I had to be careful not to skid, wheels locked, into the intersections.

[Roger Merriman]

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet anymore and some
reasons to avoid it. But I did a lot of riding in the rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland by bicycle.
It was the wettest experience of my life.
Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic to Pacific.
For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.
It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so uncomfortable. It's
as if we evolved on a planet where rain didn't happen.

Clothing I’d guess! And some folks tolerance for cold etc does differ, I
grew up in high hills etc so run at higher temps, but half decent jackets
etc make the world of difference to comfort.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Tue, 6 Aug 2024 16:14:49 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Wolfgang Strobl
Being retired, I don't have a need to ride in the wet anymore and some
reasons to avoid it. But I did a lot of riding in the rain on my
commute and during vacations.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/img-5685.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/navi/IMG_1405.jpeg>
The latter, newer photo from spring 2011 was taken here, btw.
Wasn't raining, that day. :-)

In the early 1990s we spent nearly a month touring Ireland by bicycle.
It was the wettest experience of my life.

Ireland is known for its humid but Mediterranean climate. I've never
been there, but I had friends on motorcycles who liked to ride along the
coast in clothes that reminded me of diving suits. We prefered visiting
France or Italy, for our vacations. For one thing, it is easier to
reach. Food and cooking is better, too. I like the markets. YMMV.

Post by Frank Krygowski
Also, in the early 2000s, we rode coast to coast, Atlantic to Pacific.
For the first two weeks it rained on us every day.

On the long run, this is to be expected. We call it weather. :-)

Post by Frank Krygowski
It sort of puzzles me that most people find rain so uncomfortable. It's
as if we evolved on a planet where rain didn't happen.

To say it again, unfortunately, I have got reasons to avoid riding on
wet ground. It's also more fun to have lunch outside under a parasol
than sitting inside soaking wet, on a day long ride.

I've had enough black ice, snow, slush and wet dirt during the decades I
was commuting by bike. It didn't prevent me from getting to work that
way and I still would be able to handle it, given a bicycle and clothing
tailored to that use case. But wy should I? I still own a heavy Dutch
type bike tailored to rainy weather, for short trips on flat ground*),
but our other bikes are not. Those are lightweight bicycles without
fenders with gears tailored to allow us to still do long distances and
handle steep hills. Cycling in the rain is simply no longer on the
agenda, for me.

*) ... avoiding rain when using that bicycle, too.

[Tom Kunich]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

As everyomne knows. Only Jeff Liebermann would consider looking at the Garmin literature.

[Ted Heise]

On Fri, 02 Aug 2024 04:26:47 GMT,

Post by Tom Kunich

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain
a few days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries
out. Who knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

Shoulda read this the first time. One of the commentors said he
fixed a similar problem by putting the unit into a vacuum box for
drying food. I had been thinking (while riding yesterday) that
vacuum could help draw out moisture, but not hit on this idea
(only been thinking of whether the lab at work might have anything
with a vacuum chamber). I may give this a try if I have ongoing
problems, though the commentor posted a later follow-up message
that the problem was back.

FWIW, I've ridden with this specific Garmin in pretty heavy rain a
number of times before without any problem. On the other hand,
the touch screen does have a recent scratch, so perhaps dropping
it has compromised the unit's integrity.

Post by Tom Kunich

Post by Jeff Liebermann
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"

As everyomne knows. Only Jeff Liebermann would consider looking at the Garmin literature.

You say this as if it's a bad thing, but I'm not getting why that
might be so. Seems to me helpful information.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Ted Heise
On Fri, 02 Aug 2024 04:26:47 GMT,

Post by Tom Kunich

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain
a few days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries
out. Who knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

Shoulda read this the first time. One of the commentors said he
fixed a similar problem by putting the unit into a vacuum box for
drying food. I had been thinking (while riding yesterday) that
vacuum could help draw out moisture, but not hit on this idea
(only been thinking of whether the lab at work might have anything
with a vacuum chamber). I may give this a try if I have ongoing
problems, though the commentor posted a later follow-up message
that the problem was back.

Careful with vacuum pumps. I did that to dry out an iPhone something
that went for a swim. I have an Edwards E2M1 vacuum pump that I used
for eliminating bubbles in plastic castings.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=edwards+e2m1&tbm=isch>
I don't recall exactly how many torr I took it down to, but it was too
much. There were several SMD (surface mount device) components that
had tiny holes in their packages to exclude moisture while equalizing
air pressure inside the package. The phone played dead for over a day
but eventually revived itself. I'll see if I can find somewhere who
made it work.

Post by Ted Heise
FWIW, I've ridden with this specific Garmin in pretty heavy rain a
number of times before without any problem. On the other hand,
the touch screen does have a recent scratch, so perhaps dropping
it has compromised the unit's integrity.

Post by Tom Kunich

Post by Jeff Liebermann
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"

As everyomne knows. Only Jeff Liebermann would consider looking
at the Garmin literature.

You say this as if it's a bad thing, but I'm not getting why that
might be so. Seems to me helpful information.

I don't think Tom likes me, probably because I provide fact checking
and corrections of his claims, which are usually wrong.

Gone for a walk (not a bicycle ride).

[Roger Merriman]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie it’s generally not
accurate, particularly noticeable across short sharp climbs where the 20%
will display after it starts to ease off.

Bad news travels fast, I’d not chalk up much with folks on internet having
problems, if it was a known big problem I’d expect to see it mentioned
within the upgrade 840/540 over the 830/530 folks like
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com> who do highly detailed reviews and potential
issues that come up.

Ie I’m sure it’s possible but I’m cynical that it’s a know issue as you
where.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

The bezel is flat no ridges so water will not pool but be drops though
don’t use the silicone case which I guess might make it pool marginally
more, only problem with rain is the touch screen but one can lock that, and
generally i certainly don’t touch the device much once started.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie it’s generally not
accurate, particularly noticeable across short sharp climbs where the 20%
will display after it starts to ease off.

I don't understand what you're saying. The failure mechanism is
rather simple, assuming the Edge 830 uses some type of MEMS (Micro
Electro Mechanical System) pressure sensor:
<https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/120>
<https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/0/c/d/5/3/bmp384-datasheet.pdf>
There are many variations in the sensor. For example, the BMP384
above uses a gel filled cavity to reduce the effects of condensation
and contamination. I have no idea what's actually inside the Garmin
830. None of them are "water proof".

When the altitude (air pressure) readings begin to lag behind the
actual altitude, that the first sign of condensation inside the
sensor. The sensor is something like a tuning fork, which is
deflected by the differential air pressure where one side of the fork
is inside a sealed enclosure, while the other side is exposed to the
atmosphere. Add a tiny drop of water to the atmospheric side and the
vibration frequency changes, which changes the indicated atmospheric
pressure. However, the sealed box might be genuinely hermetically
sealed or it might have a tiny hole in the box which leaks air to
re-establish a reference pressure over a long period of time, such as
a few days. I suspect this is the way Garmin does it because the
instructions demand that the user re-calibrate the altimeter before
the start of every ride.

The reader comment at:
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830/1312133#1312133>
provides a clue. The author cycles the air pressure with a vacuum
food box until the altitude delay problem magically went away. What
he did was pump out whatever water vapor or condensate had collected
inside the Edge 830. Heating, to promote evaporation or cooling, to
reduce relative humidity, can also be used to remove water. Installing
a desiccant bag inside the case would probably have prevented the
problem:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desiccant+bag&tbm=isch>
Replace every one or two years or heat dry the bag:
<https://www.roycopackaging.com/blogs/news/a-step-by-step-tutorial-on-how-to-dry-a-desiccant-bag>
Desiccant is also useful for preventing corrosion.

Post by Roger Merriman
Bad news travels fast, I’d not chalk up much with folks on internet having
problems, if it was a known big problem I’d expect to see it mentioned
within the upgrade 840/540 over the 830/530 folks like
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com> who do highly detailed reviews and potential
issues that come up.

DcRainmaker.com is a really good site for evaluating bicycle
electronics and gizmos:
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>

As for news traveling fast, that's true. However, solutions, theories
and fixes don't appear anywhere near as fast when there is little or
no technical information available from the manufacturer. For
example, when I was looking for a photo of the inside of an Edge 830,
all I could find was the iFixit teardown, which showed very little.
Oops, I didn't notice that there were several 830 teardowns on the
iFixit site. This one shows a little more internal detail but nothing
that would help me find or identify the air pressure sensor:
<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+Edge+830+Battery+Replacement/149237>

Post by Roger Merriman
Ie I’m sure it’s possible but I’m cynical that it’s a know issue as you
where.

My experience with Garmin products goes back to 1992(?), when I found
myself dealing with the company and their products in both the
avionics and marine sector. My actual involvement in those days was
minimal, but was a sufficient excuse to buy an early Garmin GPS-50
which was sufficient for learning something about how GPS works:
<http://retro-gps.info/Garmin/Garmin-GPS-50/index.html>
(Mine was for marine use using the same electronics but with a panel
mount enclosure).

I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

The bezel is flat no ridges so water will not pool but be drops though
don’t use the silicone case which I guess might make it pool marginally
more, only problem with rain is the touch screen but one can lock that, and
generally i certainly don’t touch the device much once started.

Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie it’s generally not
accurate, particularly noticeable across short sharp climbs where the 20%
will display after it starts to ease off.

I don't understand what you're saying. The failure mechanism is
rather simple, assuming the Edge 830 uses some type of MEMS (Micro
<https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/120>
<https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/0/c/d/5/3/bmp384-datasheet.pdf>
There are many variations in the sensor. For example, the BMP384
above uses a gel filled cavity to reduce the effects of condensation
and contamination. I have no idea what's actually inside the Garmin
830. None of them are "water proof".

The Gradient lag etc is exhibited on Garmin and other units with and
without a barometer.

Where as the elevation differences quite possibly are related to, a faulty
or wet sensor.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
When the altitude (air pressure) readings begin to lag behind the
actual altitude, that the first sign of condensation inside the
sensor. The sensor is something like a tuning fork, which is
deflected by the differential air pressure where one side of the fork
is inside a sealed enclosure, while the other side is exposed to the
atmosphere. Add a tiny drop of water to the atmospheric side and the
vibration frequency changes, which changes the indicated atmospheric
pressure. However, the sealed box might be genuinely hermetically
sealed or it might have a tiny hole in the box which leaks air to
re-establish a reference pressure over a long period of time, such as
a few days. I suspect this is the way Garmin does it because the
instructions demand that the user re-calibrate the altimeter before
the start of every ride.
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830/1312133#1312133>
provides a clue. The author cycles the air pressure with a vacuum
food box until the altitude delay problem magically went away. What
he did was pump out whatever water vapor or condensate had collected
inside the Edge 830. Heating, to promote evaporation or cooling, to
reduce relative humidity, can also be used to remove water. Installing
a desiccant bag inside the case would probably have prevented the
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desiccant+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.roycopackaging.com/blogs/news/a-step-by-step-tutorial-on-how-to-dry-a-desiccant-bag>
Desiccant is also useful for preventing corrosion.

Post by Roger Merriman
Bad news travels fast, I’d not chalk up much with folks on internet having
problems, if it was a known big problem I’d expect to see it mentioned
within the upgrade 840/540 over the 830/530 folks like
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com> who do highly detailed reviews and potential
issues that come up.

DcRainmaker.com is a really good site for evaluating bicycle
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>
As for news traveling fast, that's true. However, solutions, theories
and fixes don't appear anywhere near as fast when there is little or
no technical information available from the manufacturer. For
example, when I was looking for a photo of the inside of an Edge 830,
all I could find was the iFixit teardown, which showed very little.
Oops, I didn't notice that there were several 830 teardowns on the
iFixit site. This one shows a little more internal detail but nothing
<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+Edge+830+Battery+Replacement/149237>

Post by Roger Merriman
Ie I’m sure it’s possible but I’m cynical that it’s a know issue as you
where.

My experience with Garmin products goes back to 1992(?), when I found
myself dealing with the company and their products in both the
avionics and marine sector. My actual involvement in those days was
minimal, but was a sufficient excuse to buy an early Garmin GPS-50
<http://retro-gps.info/Garmin/Garmin-GPS-50/index.html>
(Mine was for marine use using the same electronics but with a panel
mount enclosure).
I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

The 530/830 was a leap ahead can’t remember if the 1030 had come out or not
at that point, but the xx30 line Garmin made to combat Wahoo and others,
mainly a much more powerful CPU so it didn’t just bug out as old models
would.

Essentially Garmin had to stop being so complacent the 520 etc didn’t fair
well compared to the competition so they needed to up their game, which
unlike Nokia for example they did.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

The bezel is flat no ridges so water will not pool but be drops though
don’t use the silicone case which I guess might make it pool marginally
more, only problem with rain is the touch screen but one can lock that, and
generally i certainly don’t touch the device much once started.

Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

I suspect the case isn’t water tight to the unit so water would still be
drops than a pool let alone the action of riding ie unlikely to perfectly
level.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.

Roger Merriman

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Jeff Liebermann
"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

The Gradient lag etc is exhibited on Garmin and other units with and
without a barometer.

I've owned and worked with marine GPS devices that don't have an
altimeter. Marine navigation works at sea level (unless you're using
a sextant, which requires dip (height of eye) correction).

I've noticed some complaints that the Edge 830 sometimes displays one
elevation but records a different number. This is usually followed by
a comment that the difference was quite small. I don't think of it
quite that way. Such a difference leaves open the possibility of
cumulative errors and possibly algorithm errors. I think I'll remain
cynical.

See section on "GPS & Elevation Accuracy".
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>
"Though I did see some elevation issues here were it showed me quite a
bit higher in elevation than I really was (300ft higher than the sea I
was sitting next to). Garmin isn’t super clear on why this happened,
though I haven’t seen it happen again. And again, that was a month ago
on older firmware."

Post by Roger Merriman
Where as the elevation differences quite possibly are related to, a faulty
or wet sensor.

Agreed. There's also the trap I've fallen into a few times. In
cycling, the GPS receiver and altimeter is always moving, while in
hiking or laboratory testing, there are times when the GPS receiver is
stationary. These stationary periods are very useful for data
averaging to improve accuracy or to recalibrate. Except at ride end
points, averaging is not available on always moving cycling receivers.

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

The 530/830 was a leap ahead can’t remember if the 1030 had come out or not
at that point, but the xx30 line Garmin made to combat Wahoo and others,
mainly a much more powerful CPU so it didn’t just bug out as old models
would.
Essentially Garmin had to stop being so complacent the 520 etc didn’t fair
well compared to the competition so they needed to up their game, which
unlike Nokia for example they did.

That's a common refrain when a successful company discovers that it
has lost its technical and price leadership. Intel today would be a
good example. The successful company concentrates on production
efficiency and treats additional research and production as a
distraction from mass production. After management has been purged
and replaced, an archeological excavation of the company research labs
usually discloses many amazing new designs the products which never
saw the light of day because they might compete with the existing
products that made the company successful. This is nothing new and
there are policies that help prevent such problems. Unfortunately, it
only takes one "temporary" decision to put immediate profits over long
term product superiority to trash the formerly successful company's
leadership. I can't claim that Garmin fits into this pattern because
I don't have enough experience with their rather large product line. I
do know that Garmin showed a few signs of over-confidence and
technical ossification that might be an indication of a problem.

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

I suspect the case isn’t water tight to the unit so water would still be
drops than a pool let alone the action of riding ie unlikely to perfectly
level.

A pool of water against a crack in the case will pump quite a bit of
water into the case. Pumping high humidity air into the case is
almost as bad. Both modes are cumulative, where the water keeps
entering the case, but not leaving. I suspect a drain hole (or
desiccant) might help.

[Roger Merriman]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Jeff Liebermann
"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

The Gradient lag etc is exhibited on Garmin and other units with and
without a barometer.

I've owned and worked with marine GPS devices that don't have an
altimeter. Marine navigation works at sea level (unless you're using
a sextant, which requires dip (height of eye) correction).
I've noticed some complaints that the Edge 830 sometimes displays one
elevation but records a different number. This is usually followed by
a comment that the difference was quite small. I don't think of it
quite that way. Such a difference leaves open the possibility of
cumulative errors and possibly algorithm errors. I think I'll remain
cynical.
See section on "GPS & Elevation Accuracy".
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>
"Though I did see some elevation issues here were it showed me quite a
bit higher in elevation than I really was (300ft higher than the sea I
was sitting next to). Garmin isn’t super clear on why this happened,
though I haven’t seen it happen again. And again, that was a month ago
on older firmware."

Post by Roger Merriman
Where as the elevation differences quite possibly are related to, a faulty
or wet sensor.

Agreed. There's also the trap I've fallen into a few times. In
cycling, the GPS receiver and altimeter is always moving, while in
hiking or laboratory testing, there are times when the GPS receiver is
stationary. These stationary periods are very useful for data
averaging to improve accuracy or to recalibrate. Except at ride end
points, averaging is not available on always moving cycling receivers.

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

The 530/830 was a leap ahead can’t remember if the 1030 had come out or not
at that point, but the xx30 line Garmin made to combat Wahoo and others,
mainly a much more powerful CPU so it didn’t just bug out as old models
would.
Essentially Garmin had to stop being so complacent the 520 etc didn’t fair
well compared to the competition so they needed to up their game, which
unlike Nokia for example they did.

That's a common refrain when a successful company discovers that it
has lost its technical and price leadership. Intel today would be a
good example. The successful company concentrates on production
efficiency and treats additional research and production as a
distraction from mass production. After management has been purged
and replaced, an archeological excavation of the company research labs
usually discloses many amazing new designs the products which never
saw the light of day because they might compete with the existing
products that made the company successful. This is nothing new and
there are policies that help prevent such problems. Unfortunately, it
only takes one "temporary" decision to put immediate profits over long
term product superiority to trash the formerly successful company's
leadership. I can't claim that Garmin fits into this pattern because
I don't have enough experience with their rather large product line. I
do know that Garmin showed a few signs of over-confidence and
technical ossification that might be an indication of a problem.

They definitely upped their game with the xx30 line up they are like
Shimano a bit conservative so features take longer to arrive say, for
example Wahoo/Hammerhead devices could display hill gradients ie show the
line of the hill and colour coded with the grades, without needing to be
following a route like Garmin’s had to until the xx40 series.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

I suspect the case isn’t water tight to the unit so water would still be
drops than a pool let alone the action of riding ie unlikely to perfectly
level.

A pool of water against a crack in the case will pump quite a bit of
water into the case. Pumping high humidity air into the case is
almost as bad. Both modes are cumulative, where the water keeps
entering the case, but not leaving. I suspect a drain hole (or
desiccant) might help.

Roger Merriman

[cyclintom]

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie its generally not
accurate, particularly noticeable across short sharp climbs where the 20%
will display after it starts to ease off.

I don't understand what you're saying. The failure mechanism is
rather simple, assuming the Edge 830 uses some type of MEMS (Micro
<https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/120>
<https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/0/c/d/5/3/bmp384-datasheet.pdf>
There are many variations in the sensor. For example, the BMP384
above uses a gel filled cavity to reduce the effects of condensation
and contamination. I have no idea what's actually inside the Garmin
830. None of them are "water proof".

The Gradient lag etc is exhibited on Garmin and other units with and
without a barometer.
Where as the elevation differences quite possibly are related to, a faulty
or wet sensor.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
When the altitude (air pressure) readings begin to lag behind the
actual altitude, that the first sign of condensation inside the
sensor. The sensor is something like a tuning fork, which is
deflected by the differential air pressure where one side of the fork
is inside a sealed enclosure, while the other side is exposed to the
atmosphere. Add a tiny drop of water to the atmospheric side and the
vibration frequency changes, which changes the indicated atmospheric
pressure. However, the sealed box might be genuinely hermetically
sealed or it might have a tiny hole in the box which leaks air to
re-establish a reference pressure over a long period of time, such as
a few days. I suspect this is the way Garmin does it because the
instructions demand that the user re-calibrate the altimeter before
the start of every ride.
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830/1312133#1312133>
provides a clue. The author cycles the air pressure with a vacuum
food box until the altitude delay problem magically went away. What
he did was pump out whatever water vapor or condensate had collected
inside the Edge 830. Heating, to promote evaporation or cooling, to
reduce relative humidity, can also be used to remove water. Installing
a desiccant bag inside the case would probably have prevented the
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desiccant+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.roycopackaging.com/blogs/news/a-step-by-step-tutorial-on-how-to-dry-a-desiccant-bag>
Desiccant is also useful for preventing corrosion.

Post by Roger Merriman
Bad news travels fast, Id not chalk up much with folks on internet having
problems, if it was a known big problem Id expect to see it mentioned
within the upgrade 840/540 over the 830/530 folks like
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com> who do highly detailed reviews and potential
issues that come up.

DcRainmaker.com is a really good site for evaluating bicycle
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>
As for news traveling fast, that's true. However, solutions, theories
and fixes don't appear anywhere near as fast when there is little or
no technical information available from the manufacturer. For
example, when I was looking for a photo of the inside of an Edge 830,
all I could find was the iFixit teardown, which showed very little.
Oops, I didn't notice that there were several 830 teardowns on the
iFixit site. This one shows a little more internal detail but nothing
<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+Edge+830+Battery+Replacement/149237>

Post by Roger Merriman
Ie Im sure its possible but Im cynical that its a know issue as you
where.

My experience with Garmin products goes back to 1992(?), when I found
myself dealing with the company and their products in both the
avionics and marine sector. My actual involvement in those days was
minimal, but was a sufficient excuse to buy an early Garmin GPS-50
<http://retro-gps.info/Garmin/Garmin-GPS-50/index.html>
(Mine was for marine use using the same electronics but with a panel
mount enclosure).
I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

The 530/830 was a leap ahead can?t remember if the 1030 had come out or not
at that point, but the xx30 line Garmin made to combat Wahoo and others,
mainly a much more powerful CPU so it didn?t just bug out as old models
would.
Essentially Garmin had to stop being so complacent the 520 etc didn?t fair
well compared to the competition so they needed to up their game, which
unlike Nokia for example they did.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

The bezel is flat no ridges so water will not pool but be drops though
dont use the silicone case which I guess might make it pool marginally
more, only problem with rain is the touch screen but one can lock that, and
generally i certainly dont touch the device much once started.

Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

I suspect the case isn?t water tight to the unit so water would still be
drops than a pool let alone the action of riding ie unlikely to perfectly
level.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.

Roger Merriman

Roger Merriman

Roger, Liebermann doesn't even know what you're talking about but is telling you all about it. Most people would find that annoying if not personally insukting. But he continues endlessly.

Have a very merry christmas anhd a happy new year while Jeff is denying the existance of Christ. Flunky denied that Pontius Pilisate ever sent a letter to Ceasar concerning Jesus including him walking on water which is a matter of historical record and is presently in the Vatican.

[John B.]

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie it

[zen cycle]

Post by cyclintom

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie its generally not
accurate, particularly noticeable across short sharp climbs where the 20%
will display after it starts to ease off.

I don't understand what you're saying. The failure mechanism is
rather simple, assuming the Edge 830 uses some type of MEMS (Micro
<https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/120>
<https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/0/c/d/5/3/bmp384-datasheet.pdf>
There are many variations in the sensor. For example, the BMP384
above uses a gel filled cavity to reduce the effects of condensation
and contamination. I have no idea what's actually inside the Garmin
830. None of them are "water proof".

The Gradient lag etc is exhibited on Garmin and other units with and
without a barometer.
Where as the elevation differences quite possibly are related to, a faulty
or wet sensor.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
When the altitude (air pressure) readings begin to lag behind the
actual altitude, that the first sign of condensation inside the
sensor. The sensor is something like a tuning fork, which is
deflected by the differential air pressure where one side of the fork
is inside a sealed enclosure, while the other side is exposed to the
atmosphere. Add a tiny drop of water to the atmospheric side and the
vibration frequency changes, which changes the indicated atmospheric
pressure. However, the sealed box might be genuinely hermetically
sealed or it might have a tiny hole in the box which leaks air to
re-establish a reference pressure over a long period of time, such as
a few days. I suspect this is the way Garmin does it because the
instructions demand that the user re-calibrate the altimeter before
the start of every ride.
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830/1312133#1312133>
provides a clue. The author cycles the air pressure with a vacuum
food box until the altitude delay problem magically went away. What
he did was pump out whatever water vapor or condensate had collected
inside the Edge 830. Heating, to promote evaporation or cooling, to
reduce relative humidity, can also be used to remove water. Installing
a desiccant bag inside the case would probably have prevented the
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desiccant+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.roycopackaging.com/blogs/news/a-step-by-step-tutorial-on-how-to-dry-a-desiccant-bag>
Desiccant is also useful for preventing corrosion.

Post by Roger Merriman
Bad news travels fast, Id not chalk up much with folks on internet having
problems, if it was a known big problem Id expect to see it mentioned
within the upgrade 840/540 over the 830/530 folks like
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com> who do highly detailed reviews and potential
issues that come up.

DcRainmaker.com is a really good site for evaluating bicycle
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>
As for news traveling fast, that's true. However, solutions, theories
and fixes don't appear anywhere near as fast when there is little or
no technical information available from the manufacturer. For
example, when I was looking for a photo of the inside of an Edge 830,
all I could find was the iFixit teardown, which showed very little.
Oops, I didn't notice that there were several 830 teardowns on the
iFixit site. This one shows a little more internal detail but nothing
<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+Edge+830+Battery+Replacement/149237>

Post by Roger Merriman
Ie Im sure its possible but Im cynical that its a know issue as you
where.

My experience with Garmin products goes back to 1992(?), when I found
myself dealing with the company and their products in both the
avionics and marine sector. My actual involvement in those days was
minimal, but was a sufficient excuse to buy an early Garmin GPS-50
<http://retro-gps.info/Garmin/Garmin-GPS-50/index.html>
(Mine was for marine use using the same electronics but with a panel
mount enclosure).
I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

The 530/830 was a leap ahead can?t remember if the 1030 had come out or not
at that point, but the xx30 line Garmin made to combat Wahoo and others,
mainly a much more powerful CPU so it didn?t just bug out as old models
would.
Essentially Garmin had to stop being so complacent the 520 etc didn?t fair
well compared to the competition so they needed to up their game, which
unlike Nokia for example they did.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

The bezel is flat no ridges so water will not pool but be drops though
dont use the silicone case which I guess might make it pool marginally
more, only problem with rain is the touch screen but one can lock that, and
generally i certainly dont touch the device much once started.

Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

I suspect the case isn?t water tight to the unit so water would still be
drops than a pool let alone the action of riding ie unlikely to perfectly
level.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.

Roger Merriman

Roger Merriman

Roger, Liebermann doesn't even know what you're talking about but is telling you all about it. Most people would find that annoying if not personally insukting. But he continues endlessly.
Have a very merry christmas anhd a happy new year while Jeff is denying the existance of Christ.

Neither Jeff nor any Jew I've ever met has denied the existence of Jesus
Christ.

Post by cyclintom
Flunky denied that Pontius Pilisate ever sent a letter to Ceasar

There may have been a historical character named Pontius Pilisate who
sent a letter to one of the Caesars. I'm sure you'll give us a link to
that evidence any time now.

Post by cyclintom
concerning Jesus including him walking on water which is a matter of historical record and is presently in the Vatican.

You wrote that Pontious Pilate wrote a letter to Julius Caesar. This is
wrong, Julius Caesar died before Christ was born. There is no letter
from Pontious Pilate to Julius Caesar in the vatican, or anywhere else.

[John B.]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 05:38:43 -0500, zen cycle

Post by zen cycle

Post by cyclintom

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie its generally not
accurate, particularly noticeable across short sharp climbs where the 20%
will display after it starts to ease off.

I don't understand what you're saying. The failure mechanism is
rather simple, assuming the Edge 830 uses some type of MEMS (Micro
<https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/120>
<https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/0/c/d/5/3/bmp384-datasheet.pdf>
There are many variations in the sensor. For example, the BMP384
above uses a gel filled cavity to reduce the effects of condensation
and contamination. I have no idea what's actually inside the Garmin
830. None of them are "water proof".

The Gradient lag etc is exhibited on Garmin and other units with and
without a barometer.
Where as the elevation differences quite possibly are related to, a faulty
or wet sensor.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
When the altitude (air pressure) readings begin to lag behind the
actual altitude, that the first sign of condensation inside the
sensor. The sensor is something like a tuning fork, which is
deflected by the differential air pressure where one side of the fork
is inside a sealed enclosure, while the other side is exposed to the
atmosphere. Add a tiny drop of water to the atmospheric side and the
vibration frequency changes, which changes the indicated atmospheric
pressure. However, the sealed box might be genuinely hermetically
sealed or it might have a tiny hole in the box which leaks air to
re-establish a reference pressure over a long period of time, such as
a few days. I suspect this is the way Garmin does it because the
instructions demand that the user re-calibrate the altimeter before
the start of every ride.
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830/1312133#1312133>
provides a clue. The author cycles the air pressure with a vacuum
food box until the altitude delay problem magically went away. What
he did was pump out whatever water vapor or condensate had collected
inside the Edge 830. Heating, to promote evaporation or cooling, to
reduce relative humidity, can also be used to remove water. Installing
a desiccant bag inside the case would probably have prevented the
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desiccant+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.roycopackaging.com/blogs/news/a-step-by-step-tutorial-on-how-to-dry-a-desiccant-bag>
Desiccant is also useful for preventing corrosion.

Post by Roger Merriman
Bad news travels fast, Id not chalk up much with folks on internet having
problems, if it was a known big problem Id expect to see it mentioned
within the upgrade 840/540 over the 830/530 folks like
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com> who do highly detailed reviews and potential
issues that come up.

DcRainmaker.com is a really good site for evaluating bicycle
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>
As for news traveling fast, that's true. However, solutions, theories
and fixes don't appear anywhere near as fast when there is little or
no technical information available from the manufacturer. For
example, when I was looking for a photo of the inside of an Edge 830,
all I could find was the iFixit teardown, which showed very little.
Oops, I didn't notice that there were several 830 teardowns on the
iFixit site. This one shows a little more internal detail but nothing
<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+Edge+830+Battery+Replacement/149237>

Post by Roger Merriman
Ie Im sure its possible but Im cynical that its a know issue as you
where.

My experience with Garmin products goes back to 1992(?), when I found
myself dealing with the company and their products in both the
avionics and marine sector. My actual involvement in those days was
minimal, but was a sufficient excuse to buy an early Garmin GPS-50
<http://retro-gps.info/Garmin/Garmin-GPS-50/index.html>
(Mine was for marine use using the same electronics but with a panel
mount enclosure).
I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

The 530/830 was a leap ahead can?t remember if the 1030 had come out or not
at that point, but the xx30 line Garmin made to combat Wahoo and others,
mainly a much more powerful CPU so it didn?t just bug out as old models
would.
Essentially Garmin had to stop being so complacent the 520 etc didn?t fair
well compared to the competition so they needed to up their game, which
unlike Nokia for example they did.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

The bezel is flat no ridges so water will not pool but be drops though
dont use the silicone case which I guess might make it pool marginally
more, only problem with rain is the touch screen but one can lock that, and
generally i certainly dont touch the device much once started.

Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

I suspect the case isn?t water tight to the unit so water would still be
drops than a pool let alone the action of riding ie unlikely to perfectly
level.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.

Roger Merriman

Roger Merriman

Roger, Liebermann doesn't even know what you're talking about but is telling you all about it. Most people would find that annoying if not personally insukting. But he continues endlessly.
Have a very merry christmas anhd a happy new year while Jeff is denying the existance of Christ.

Neither Jeff nor any Jew I've ever met has denied the existence of Jesus
Christ.

Nor for that matter neither does the Islamic realign deny him and in
fact he is described as "Jesus is Allah’s “word which he cast into
Mary, and a ‘spirit’ from him” (Sura 4:171). Jesus is also called a
word from Allah in Sura 3:39, 45 ".

[cyclintom]

Post by zen cycle

Post by cyclintom

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Ted Heise
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

"Rain and moisture has serious detrimental effect on 830"
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830>

That seems to be confused, the displayed gradient across all devices be
that Garmin or otherwise tends to lag to some degree ie its generally not
accurate, particularly noticeable across short sharp climbs where the 20%
will display after it starts to ease off.

I don't understand what you're saying. The failure mechanism is
rather simple, assuming the Edge 830 uses some type of MEMS (Micro
<https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/120>
<https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/0/c/d/5/3/bmp384-datasheet.pdf>
There are many variations in the sensor. For example, the BMP384
above uses a gel filled cavity to reduce the effects of condensation
and contamination. I have no idea what's actually inside the Garmin
830. None of them are "water proof".

The Gradient lag etc is exhibited on Garmin and other units with and
without a barometer.
Where as the elevation differences quite possibly are related to, a faulty
or wet sensor.

Post by Jeff Liebermann
When the altitude (air pressure) readings begin to lag behind the
actual altitude, that the first sign of condensation inside the
sensor. The sensor is something like a tuning fork, which is
deflected by the differential air pressure where one side of the fork
is inside a sealed enclosure, while the other side is exposed to the
atmosphere. Add a tiny drop of water to the atmospheric side and the
vibration frequency changes, which changes the indicated atmospheric
pressure. However, the sealed box might be genuinely hermetically
sealed or it might have a tiny hole in the box which leaks air to
re-establish a reference pressure over a long period of time, such as
a few days. I suspect this is the way Garmin does it because the
instructions demand that the user re-calibrate the altimeter before
the start of every ride.
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194977/rain-and-moisture-has-serious-detrimental-effect-on-830/1312133#1312133>
provides a clue. The author cycles the air pressure with a vacuum
food box until the altitude delay problem magically went away. What
he did was pump out whatever water vapor or condensate had collected
inside the Edge 830. Heating, to promote evaporation or cooling, to
reduce relative humidity, can also be used to remove water. Installing
a desiccant bag inside the case would probably have prevented the
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desiccant+bag&tbm=isch>
<https://www.roycopackaging.com/blogs/news/a-step-by-step-tutorial-on-how-to-dry-a-desiccant-bag>
Desiccant is also useful for preventing corrosion.

Post by Roger Merriman
Bad news travels fast, Id not chalk up much with folks on internet having
problems, if it was a known big problem Id expect to see it mentioned
within the upgrade 840/540 over the 830/530 folks like
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com> who do highly detailed reviews and potential
issues that come up.

DcRainmaker.com is a really good site for evaluating bicycle
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/04/garmin-edge-830-cycling-gps-in-depth-review.html>
As for news traveling fast, that's true. However, solutions, theories
and fixes don't appear anywhere near as fast when there is little or
no technical information available from the manufacturer. For
example, when I was looking for a photo of the inside of an Edge 830,
all I could find was the iFixit teardown, which showed very little.
Oops, I didn't notice that there were several 830 teardowns on the
iFixit site. This one shows a little more internal detail but nothing
<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+Edge+830+Battery+Replacement/149237>

Post by Roger Merriman
Ie Im sure its possible but Im cynical that its a know issue as you
where.

My experience with Garmin products goes back to 1992(?), when I found
myself dealing with the company and their products in both the
avionics and marine sector. My actual involvement in those days was
minimal, but was a sufficient excuse to buy an early Garmin GPS-50
<http://retro-gps.info/Garmin/Garmin-GPS-50/index.html>
(Mine was for marine use using the same electronics but with a panel
mount enclosure).
I don't want to unload my experiences and disappointments with Garmin
and their products. Sufficient to say that I'm generally disappointed
with Garmin and some of their products and support. Yes, that's
cynical, but then I'm usually cynical with all companies and products
until they demonstrate otherwise.

The 530/830 was a leap ahead can?t remember if the 1030 had come out or not
at that point, but the xx30 line Garmin made to combat Wahoo and others,
mainly a much more powerful CPU so it didn?t just bug out as old models
would.
Essentially Garmin had to stop being so complacent the 520 etc didn?t fair
well compared to the competition so they needed to up their game, which
unlike Nokia for example they did.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
It's possible to "pump" water into an allegedly waterproof enclosure.
Heat the GPS with hot air to about 45C. Then dump it in a bucket of
10C cold water. The air inside the GPS will contract and create a
partial vacuum, which then sucks the water into the enclosure (if
there are any leaks). Look for condensation INSIDE of the enclosure
and intermittent button press failures.
Most consumer GPS products can survived one or two heating and dunking
cycles without difficulty. The units that I tested in the mid 1990's
were horrible. None of them survived more than about 10 heating and
dunking cycles. After failure, none of them recovered by themselves
as there was no path for the water vapor to exit the enclosure. I had
to disassemble all the test units and hot air dry them. (Hint: Rice
doesn't work).
<https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge830/EN-US/GUID-CE2FC337-A232-482C-8747-A49C0098962E.html>
<https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/waterrating-definitions/>
"IPX7 - Withstands incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for
up to 30 minutes. Suitable for: splashes, rain or snow, showering"
In other words, forget about submerging it in a bucket of water even
though the spec hints that it can be done. That also includes a
puddle of water on the faceplate, standing water on the faceplate
caused by a front bezel that creates a pond, or standing water on any
joint in the pastic case.

The bezel is flat no ridges so water will not pool but be drops though
dont use the silicone case which I guess might make it pool marginally
more, only problem with rain is the touch screen but one can lock that, and
generally i certainly dont touch the device much once started.

Yes, a silicone case will collect water and is probably a bad idea in
a wet environment. However, it's a good addition if there's any
danger of dropping the Edge 830 on hard pavement.

I suspect the case isn?t water tight to the unit so water would still be
drops than a pool let alone the action of riding ie unlikely to perfectly
level.

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Roger Merriman

Post by Jeff Liebermann
If you suspect that water is the culprit, my suggestions is to open
the Edge 830 case and let it dry out. Hopefully, that will help it
recover.
Sorry about not answering your question earlier. I had no idea what
was causing the problem and didn't think of water incursion until you
mentioned it.
Good luck.

Roger Merriman

Roger Merriman

Roger, Liebermann doesn't even know what you're talking about but is telling you all about it. Most people would find that annoying if not personally insukting. But he continues endlessly.
Have a very merry christmas anhd a happy new year while Jeff is denying the existance of Christ.

Neither Jeff nor any Jew I've ever met has denied the existence of Jesus
Christ.

Post by cyclintom
Flunky denied that Pontius Pilisate ever sent a letter to Ceasar

There may have been a historical character named Pontius Pilisate who
sent a letter to one of the Caesars. I'm sure you'll give us a link to
that evidence any time now.

Post by cyclintom
concerning Jesus including him walking on water which is a matter of historical record and is presently in the Vatican.

You wrote that Pontious Pilate wrote a letter to Julius Caesar. This is
wrong, Julius Caesar died before Christ was born. There is no letter
from Pontious Pilate to Julius Caesar in the vatican, or anywhere else.

Poor Flunky even denies the fact that I did. There is nothing in this world that he will not deny. Claiming that he doesn't know any Jew that denies Jesus is easy when you know no Jews or deny their religion.

[Zen Cycle]

Post by cyclintom

Post by zen cycle

Post by cyclintom
Roger, Liebermann doesn't even know what you're talking about but is telling you all about it. Most people would find that annoying if not personally insukting. But he continues endlessly.
Have a very merry christmas anhd a happy new year while Jeff is denying the existance of Christ.

Neither Jeff nor any Jew I've ever met has denied the existence of Jesus
Christ.

Post by cyclintom
Flunky denied that Pontius Pilisate ever sent a letter to Ceasar

There may have been a historical character named Pontius Pilisate who
sent a letter to one of the Caesars. I'm sure you'll give us a link to
that evidence any time now.

Post by cyclintom
concerning Jesus including him walking on water which is a matter of historical record and is presently in the Vatican.

You wrote that Pontious Pilate wrote a letter to Julius Caesar. This is
wrong, Julius Caesar died before Christ was born. There is no letter
from Pontious Pilate to Julius Caesar in the vatican, or anywhere else.

Poor Flunky even denies the fact that I did.

You did what? You denied Christ existed or you wrote a letter to Julius
Caesar?

Post by cyclintom
There is nothing in this world that he will not deny.

I don't deny that you're an idiot.

Post by cyclintom
Claiming that he doesn't know any Jew that denies Jesus

Tommy, no follower of judaism in any of its accepted sects deny the
existence of Jesus Christ. In fact:

https://jewsforjesus.org/

(not generally recognized by the major sects of judaism, but the point
remains...)

Post by cyclintom
is easy when you know no Jews or deny their religion.

Given that you're under the delusion that Jews deny the existence of
jesus, it's safe to say I know more jewish people than you do

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Zen Cycle
https://jewsforjesus.org
(not generally recognized by the major sects of judaism, but the point
remains...)

That group is mostly tolerated by Jews. I've only had one experience
with them and it wasn't good. I was in the LAX (Los Angeles) terminal
where one of their members was busy accosting passengers and offering
literature. I was visiting from the SF Bay area and looking for my
father. I eventually found him, just in time to break up a pushing
and shoving match between my father and the Jews-for-Jesus salesman. I
had never seen my father that angry before or seen him as angry later
in life. I was having difficulty keeping the two apart until I help
arrived from another passenger.

I don't want to go into the reasons behind why my father and most of
the survivors of the concentrations camps failed to appreciate the
actions and inactions of the catholic church. If I did, I would be
arguing all night.

Post by Zen Cycle

Post by cyclintom
is easy when you know no Jews or deny their religion.

It's even easier when I deny that Tom exists[1]. I had previously
declared debating with Tom to be a monumental waste of my time. I
have had some difficulty ignoring his insults and attacks. Pretending
he doesn't exist makes selectively ignoring Tom much easier.

Post by Zen Cycle
Given that you're under the delusion that Jews deny the existence of
jesus, it's safe to say I know more jewish people than you do

Tom, I'm really glad that you don't know any Jews. That should
protect them from your amazing facts, bogus claims, inaccurate
numbers, historical revisionism, polarizing opinions, racial bias,
caustic hatred, typo errors, etc.

[1] 09/14/2024
<https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com>
"As far as I'm concerned, Tom Kunich does not exist. He can say
whatever he pleases, he can lie however he wants, he can call me names
and he can invent things to accuse me of doing. What changes now is
that I will no longer respond to any of these. I will pretend that
Tom doesn't exist exactly in the same manner that he hallucinates his
amazing facts. I don't know how much time that will save me, but I
suspect it will be substantial."

[cyclintom]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Zen Cycle
https://jewsforjesus.org
(not generally recognized by the major sects of judaism, but the point
remains...)

That group is mostly tolerated by Jews. I've only had one experience
with them and it wasn't good. I was in the LAX (Los Angeles) terminal
where one of their members was busy accosting passengers and offering
literature. I was visiting from the SF Bay area and looking for my
father. I eventually found him, just in time to break up a pushing
and shoving match between my father and the Jews-for-Jesus salesman. I
had never seen my father that angry before or seen him as angry later
in life. I was having difficulty keeping the two apart until I help
arrived from another passenger.
I don't want to go into the reasons behind why my father and most of
the survivors of the concentrations camps failed to appreciate the
actions and inactions of the catholic church. If I did, I would be
arguing all night.

Post by Zen Cycle

Post by cyclintom
is easy when you know no Jews or deny their religion.

It's even easier when I deny that Tom exists[1]. I had previously
declared debating with Tom to be a monumental waste of my time. I
have had some difficulty ignoring his insults and attacks. Pretending
he doesn't exist makes selectively ignoring Tom much easier.

Post by Zen Cycle
Given that you're under the delusion that Jews deny the existence of
jesus, it's safe to say I know more jewish people than you do

Tom, I'm really glad that you don't know any Jews. That should
protect them from your amazing facts, bogus claims, inaccurate
numbers, historical revisionism, polarizing opinions, racial bias,
caustic hatred, typo errors, etc.
[1] 09/14/2024
<https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com>
"As far as I'm concerned, Tom Kunich does not exist. He can say
whatever he pleases, he can lie however he wants, he can call me names
and he can invent things to accuse me of doing. What changes now is
that I will no longer respond to any of these. I will pretend that
Tom doesn't exist exactly in the same manner that he hallucinates his
amazing facts. I don't know how much time that will save me, but I
suspect it will be substantial."

You don't debate. You masterbate. Your entire work history showss that you could not even get employment in the hottest electronic market in the entire world. I had a long and prosperous carreer and you replaced ink jet printer cartridges for people that didn't know how.

You, Flunky and Krygowski showed your intelligence by telling everyone that I still had a Facebook account despite the fact that they had locked me out of it. Now that you morons actually believe that if you could find an account that I could post to it shows a level of ignorance beyond understanding. Yahoo, Youtube, and Facebook ALL sharply censor ANY posting that doesn't meet "community standards". Community standards are not explained and it is all done using AI and not someone making a real decision.

Isn't it time you tell everyone that there was never any water behind the damn on Cull Canyon?

[John B.]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Zen Cycle
https://jewsforjesus.org
(not generally recognized by the major sects of judaism, but the point
remains...)

That group is mostly tolerated by Jews. I've only had one experience
with them and it wasn't good. I was in the LAX (Los Angeles) terminal
where one of their members was busy accosting passengers and offering
literature. I was visiting from the SF Bay area and looking for my
father. I eventually found him, just in time to break up a pushing
and shoving match between my father and the Jews-for-Jesus salesman. I
had never seen my father that angry before or seen him as angry later
in life. I was having difficulty keeping the two apart until I help
arrived from another passenger.
I don't want to go into the reasons behind why my father and most of
the survivors of the concentrations camps failed to appreciate the
actions and inactions of the catholic church. If I did, I would be
arguing all night.

Post by Zen Cycle

Post by cyclintom
is easy when you know no Jews or deny their religion.

It's even easier when I deny that Tom exists[1]. I had previously
declared debating with Tom to be a monumental waste of my time. I
have had some difficulty ignoring his insults and attacks. Pretending
he doesn't exist makes selectively ignoring Tom much easier.

Post by Zen Cycle
Given that you're under the delusion that Jews deny the existence of
jesus, it's safe to say I know more jewish people than you do

"Jews deny the existence of Jesus"

A strange comment as Jesus was a Jew.

[cyclintom]

Post by Zen Cycle

Post by cyclintom

Post by zen cycle

Post by cyclintom
Roger, Liebermann doesn't even know what you're talking about but is telling you all about it. Most people would find that annoying if not personally insukting. But he continues endlessly.
Have a very merry christmas anhd a happy new year while Jeff is denying the existance of Christ.

Neither Jeff nor any Jew I've ever met has denied the existence of Jesus
Christ.

Post by cyclintom
Flunky denied that Pontius Pilisate ever sent a letter to Ceasar

There may have been a historical character named Pontius Pilisate who
sent a letter to one of the Caesars. I'm sure you'll give us a link to
that evidence any time now.

Post by cyclintom
concerning Jesus including him walking on water which is a matter of historical record and is presently in the Vatican.

You wrote that Pontious Pilate wrote a letter to Julius Caesar. This is
wrong, Julius Caesar died before Christ was born. There is no letter
from Pontious Pilate to Julius Caesar in the vatican, or anywhere else.

Poor Flunky even denies the fact that I did.

You did what? You denied Christ existed or you wrote a letter to Julius
Caesar?

Post by cyclintom
There is nothing in this world that he will not deny.

I don't deny that you're an idiot.

Post by cyclintom
Claiming that he doesn't know any Jew that denies Jesus

Tommy, no follower of judaism in any of its accepted sects deny the
https://jewsforjesus.org/
(not generally recognized by the major sects of judaism, but the point
remains...)

Post by cyclintom
is easy when you know no Jews or deny their religion.

Given that you're under the delusion that Jews deny the existence of
jesus, it's safe to say I know more jewish people than you do

You believe what you want to believe. On a good day you barely reach the IQ of an idiot. This history of the Earth is clear and it pretty much demonstrates that "let there be light, and there was". That everything appeared virtually instantly. Is there any reason that people should have the slightest care what you think? You;re the one trying to pass off a fancy title as being more important than the QC manager it really is.

[zen cycle]

Post by cyclintom

Post by Zen Cycle

Post by cyclintom

Post by zen cycle

Post by cyclintom
Roger, Liebermann doesn't even know what you're talking about but is telling you all about it. Most people would find that annoying if not personally insukting. But he continues endlessly.
Have a very merry christmas anhd a happy new year while Jeff is denying the existance of Christ.

Neither Jeff nor any Jew I've ever met has denied the existence of Jesus
Christ.

Post by cyclintom
Flunky denied that Pontius Pilisate ever sent a letter to Ceasar

There may have been a historical character named Pontius Pilisate who
sent a letter to one of the Caesars. I'm sure you'll give us a link to
that evidence any time now.

Post by cyclintom
concerning Jesus including him walking on water which is a matter of historical record and is presently in the Vatican.

You wrote that Pontious Pilate wrote a letter to Julius Caesar. This is
wrong, Julius Caesar died before Christ was born. There is no letter
from Pontious Pilate to Julius Caesar in the vatican, or anywhere else.

Poor Flunky even denies the fact that I did.

You did what? You denied Christ existed or you wrote a letter to Julius
Caesar?

Post by cyclintom
There is nothing in this world that he will not deny.

I don't deny that you're an idiot.

Post by cyclintom
Claiming that he doesn't know any Jew that denies Jesus

Tommy, no follower of judaism in any of its accepted sects deny the
https://jewsforjesus.org/
(not generally recognized by the major sects of judaism, but the point
remains...)

Post by cyclintom
is easy when you know no Jews or deny their religion.

Given that you're under the delusion that Jews deny the existence of
jesus, it's safe to say I know more jewish people than you do

You believe what you want to believe.

oh, do I have your permission?

Post by cyclintom
On a good day you barely reach the IQ of an idiot.

tell us again how jews deny the existence of jesus?

Post by cyclintom
This history of the Earth is clear

As clear as the primordial soup.

Post by cyclintom
and it pretty much demonstrates that "let there be light, and there was".

interesting. Genesis 1-3 to 1-5 details the instantiation of light and
dark, day and night, on the first day.

But it wasn't until the 4th day (genesis 1-16 to 1_19) when god created
"the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the
night."

Where did the light on the first day come from?

Post by cyclintom
That everything appeared virtually instantly.

Only if you buy into the Genesis fairy tale. There's also a debate
amoung biblical scholars as to what constituted a "day" during the Genesis.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/biblical-reasons-to-doubt-the-creation-days-were-24-hour-periods/

"instantly" is an interpretation - a perception. The Cambrian Explosion
appears from the geological timeline to be "instantaneous", yet
paleontological estimates range from 13 million to 25 million years.

If, according to you, god created everything in 6 24-hour days, why
couldn't god also have embarked on an Intelligent Design path where the
parameters for evolution were "fine tuned" and allowed to develop at
their own pace?

You don't know what god did, if anything. You're just believing what
you're told to believe. The bible was written by men to exert control
and authority over the gullible masses. There's no _logical_ reason to
beleive it holds any more "truth" than any other ancient religious text.

Post by cyclintom
Is there any reason that people should have the slightest care what you think?

None whatsoever.

Post by cyclintom
You;re the one trying to pass off a fancy title as being more important than the QC manager it really is.

According to Zip Recruiter QC manager salaries are generally 20% higher
than regulatory engineers. I don't know what our QC manager makes, but I
know he can take a two week vacation with his family to Greece every
year to visit his wife's family and he drives a newer BMW 535.

QC managers also directly report to the CEO, I don't.

If I were claiming to be something more that I was, why wouldn't I claim
the higher salary position with a direct-report to the CEO?

No, tommy, you're the one who keeps claiming grandiose accomplishments
that are contradicted by you complete lack of knowledge.

You're a fraud, tommy. We all know it.

[Roger Merriman]

Post by Ted Heise
On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 14:57:26 GMT,

Post by Tom KunichFirmware updAtes

Post by Ted Heise
On Thu, 01 Aug 2024 04:58:13 GMT,

Post by Ted Heise
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with
very few (if any) real problems, but the last couple of
rides the altimeter has gone crazy. It takes the
elevation for its stored home location (692 ft) just fine
when I start the ride, but then it starts climbing on its
own and then descending--with no reflection of the real
elevation.

The only time I?ve had some funky elevation is
thunderstorms or rather a significant pressure change as
front moves in.

Yeah, I've seen that behavior as well when there have been
fronts come through, but this is not in any way related to
actual changes in barometric pressure.
I reset the device last night (pain in the rear) and thought
it was okay--the reported elevation held pretty steady. This
morning it did too with the unit just turned on, but when I
had it start recording the elevation started incorrectly
increasing again.

Well, it seemed to mostly work okay on my ride today, though it
autopaused once when I was NOT stopped and also popped up a
submenu a couple of times when I had not pressed the touch screen.
This latter could possibly have been from a drop of sweat landing
on the screen, I suppose. No idea about the stray autopause.
I do wonder if the thing got too wet when riding in the rain a few
days ago, and is getting gradually better as it dries out. Who
knows.

I’ve only had odd readings if very wet and the Barometer vent is blocked by
water etc, on filthy wet rides, which I also lock the touch screen on such
rides as otherwise the rain will drive the screen.

Always absolutely fine next time I use it, or even later on in the ride.

Post by Ted Heise

Post by Tom KunichFirmware updAtes
Firmware updates can really screw the operation of the 830 up.
Check back after you've tested it now.

Yeah, I thought of that but the last firmware update was some time
back--many months.

Can’t remember any for a while? I guess could check the logs and so on!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Post by Ted Heise
Hi all,
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very few
(if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the altimeter
has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its stored home
location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride, but then it
starts climbing on its own and then descending--with no reflection
of the real elevation.
Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I never
saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646
and here's the proper profile from the route...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I haven't
tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

Many years ago I was given a Nike Lance Armstrong watch as a present.
(This was back when Armstrong was still a hero to many.) It was kind of
fun for years, but eventually its altimeter went crazy, indicating
continuous nonstop altitude gain. As I recall, contacting Nike resulted
in instructions to send it in for repair at about the price of a new one.

Sorry, I have no practical advice.

[Ted Heise]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2024 15:24:31 -0400,

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Ted Heise
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I
haven't tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

Many years ago I was given a Nike Lance Armstrong watch as a
present. (This was back when Armstrong was still a hero to
many.) It was kind of fun for years, but eventually its
altimeter went crazy, indicating continuous nonstop altitude
gain. As I recall, contacting Nike resulted in instructions to
send it in for repair at about the price of a new one.
Sorry, I have no practical advice.

Thanks for the feedback, Frank.

[Tom Kunich]

Post by Ted Heise
On Thu, 1 Aug 2024 15:24:31 -0400,

Post by Frank Krygowski

Post by Ted Heise
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I
haven't tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

Many years ago I was given a Nike Lance Armstrong watch as a
present. (This was back when Armstrong was still a hero to
many.) It was kind of fun for years, but eventually its
altimeter went crazy, indicating continuous nonstop altitude
gain. As I recall, contacting Nike resulted in instructions to
send it in for repair at about the price of a new one.
Sorry, I have no practical advice.

Thanks for the feedback, Frank.
--

The 830 is nearly bulletproof. It is VERY difficult to get moisture inside the case and the components are uncased IC's that have a PC board that is sealed.

Remember that Frank knows ZERO about technology and that doesn't stop him from talking about it.

Hold the power button on until it announces that it is turning off and then after 10 seconds or so turn it back on. Your problem is no doubt an incomplete restart after the firmware update. These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Tom Kunich
The 830 is nearly bulletproof.

What caliber and weight bullet? I would think a .22LR would go
through the Garmin 830 screen, shields, PCB and case. No need for an
AR something or other.

Post by Tom Kunich
It is VERY difficult to get moisture inside the case

Have you tried a leak test? How do you know it's difficult to get
moisture inside the case? I previously described how to pump water
into just about any "sealed" enclosure using nothing more than
temperature differential and a partial vacuum.

Post by Tom Kunich
and the components are uncased IC's that have a PC board that is sealed.

<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+830+Display+Replacement/139467>
<https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/gdqRcKMMWmtkQXUi.large>
I don't see any COB (chips on board) IC's as is common with cheap junk
(i.e. most consumer weather stations). Touch the epoxy blob the chip
is dead. How did you know that the IC's were "uncased"? Did you open
the 830 and look inside? If so, do you have any photos?

Also, I don't see any evidence of a conformal coating on the PCB
(printed circuit board) in the above photo. Hard coating a flexible
ribbon cable doesn't work very well.

Post by Tom Kunich
Remember that Frank knows ZERO about technology and that doesn't stop him from talking about it.
Hold the power button on until it announces that it is turning off and then after 10 seconds or so turn it back on. Your problem is no doubt an incomplete restart after the firmware update. These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

I owned Garmin GPS 45, GPS 95 and GPS 76 GPS's. Over the years, I've
worked on other Garmin models, mostly those used in marine navigation.
(I didn't own them). Most of these became worthless on Aug 21, 1999,
when the GPS week number reset to zero and firmware went insane.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_week_number_rollover>
Garmin didn't feel obligated to update the firmware of their older
models and expected soon to be former customers to purchase the latest
model GPS. I have more recent model GPS's, but I don't want to take
inventory today. Maybe later because the pile of GPS receivers and
antennas would make an interesting photo.

Drivel: A little extra protection perhaps?
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/313584188487>

[zen cycle]

Post by Tom Kunich
Remember that Frank knows ZERO about technology and that doesn't stop him from talking about it.

Constantly pontificate on subjects you have no experience with.

Post by Tom Kunich
Hold the power button on until it announces that it is turning off and then after 10 seconds or so turn it back on. Your problem is no doubt an incomplete restart after the firmware update.

Bullshit

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).

Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 06:28:21 -0400, zen cycle
(chomp)

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Tom left the EXIF data on one of his photos. Tom owned a Samsung
smartphone, which qualifies him as "experienced".
Samsung SM-A516V
f/2 1/141 4.6mm ISO50
That's a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a51_5g_uw-10371.php>
The "A" series phones are considered mid-range.
<https://www.samsung.com/uk/mobile-phone-buying-guide/samsung-phone-ranges-explained/>
Support for this phone ended in June 2024.
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_ends_support_for_the_galaxy_a51_5g_a41_and_m01-news-63142.php>

Unfortunately, I've owned and repaired a fair number Samsung phones
over the years. One former customer would give me his old Samsung
phone when he upgraded to a newer Samsung phone. I think I have 3 or
4 such phones. In this case, repeating the same mistake over and over
again was not a sign of insanity, but rather was a sign of customer
loyalty. I did have problems with "updating firmware" but those were
the result of attempts to install custom ROM images. I did it to
myself a few times until I learned that the marginal benefits of a
jail-broken phone were not worth the effort.

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.

I currently own about six Garmin GPS devices, most of which might
still work. I didn't count them. Does owning six Garmin GPS devices
make me six times as qualified as Tom with only his Garmin 830? Having
experience is useful, but is not a substitute for understanding how
things work.

Post by zen cycle
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

It's fairly easy to identify a genuine expert online. Every specialty
has its vocabulary, acronyms, buzzword, metaphors, trade jargon,
slang, etc. All of these change constantly. An expert in a specialty
will use all the right terms, in the correct context, and in a manner
consistent with the general information available on the specialty.
That's certainly not Tom with his "light lines", PWM, mis-spelled
company names, etc. It is possible to use Google or ChatGPT to
produce a number of buzzwords, but without the background knowledge as
to what they really mean and how they are used by people in the
specialty, they are useless and usually result in a word salad.

[Catrike Ryder]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 06:28:21 -0400, zen cycle
(chomp)

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Tom left the EXIF data on one of his photos. Tom owned a Samsung
smartphone, which qualifies him as "experienced".
Samsung SM-A516V
f/2 1/141 4.6mm ISO50
That's a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a51_5g_uw-10371.php>
The "A" series phones are considered mid-range.
<https://www.samsung.com/uk/mobile-phone-buying-guide/samsung-phone-ranges-explained/>
Support for this phone ended in June 2024.
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_ends_support_for_the_galaxy_a51_5g_a41_and_m01-news-63142.php>
Unfortunately, I've owned and repaired a fair number Samsung phones
over the years. One former customer would give me his old Samsung
phone when he upgraded to a newer Samsung phone. I think I have 3 or
4 such phones. In this case, repeating the same mistake over and over
again was not a sign of insanity, but rather was a sign of customer
loyalty. I did have problems with "updating firmware" but those were
the result of attempts to install custom ROM images. I did it to
myself a few times until I learned that the marginal benefits of a
jail-broken phone were not worth the effort.

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.

I currently own about six Garmin GPS devices, most of which might
still work. I didn't count them. Does owning six Garmin GPS devices
make me six times as qualified as Tom with only his Garmin 830? Having
experience is useful, but is not a substitute for understanding how
things work.

Post by zen cycle
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

It's fairly easy to identify a genuine expert online. Every specialty
has its vocabulary, acronyms, buzzword, metaphors, trade jargon,
slang, etc. All of these change constantly. An expert in a specialty
will use all the right terms, in the correct context, and in a manner
consistent with the general information available on the specialty.
That's certainly not Tom with his "light lines", PWM, mis-spelled
company names, etc. It is possible to use Google or ChatGPT to
produce a number of buzzwords, but without the background knowledge as
to what they really mean and how they are used by people in the
specialty, they are useless and usually result in a word salad.

An ex-pert is somebody who used to be pert. I was never pert, so,
therefore,.......

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pert

[cyclintom]

Post by Catrike Ryder

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 06:28:21 -0400, zen cycle
(chomp)

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Tom left the EXIF data on one of his photos. Tom owned a Samsung
smartphone, which qualifies him as "experienced".
Samsung SM-A516V
f/2 1/141 4.6mm ISO50
That's a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a51_5g_uw-10371.php>
The "A" series phones are considered mid-range.
<https://www.samsung.com/uk/mobile-phone-buying-guide/samsung-phone-ranges-explained/>
Support for this phone ended in June 2024.
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_ends_support_for_the_galaxy_a51_5g_a41_and_m01-news-63142.php>
Unfortunately, I've owned and repaired a fair number Samsung phones
over the years. One former customer would give me his old Samsung
phone when he upgraded to a newer Samsung phone. I think I have 3 or
4 such phones. In this case, repeating the same mistake over and over
again was not a sign of insanity, but rather was a sign of customer
loyalty. I did have problems with "updating firmware" but those were
the result of attempts to install custom ROM images. I did it to
myself a few times until I learned that the marginal benefits of a
jail-broken phone were not worth the effort.

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.

I currently own about six Garmin GPS devices, most of which might
still work. I didn't count them. Does owning six Garmin GPS devices
make me six times as qualified as Tom with only his Garmin 830? Having
experience is useful, but is not a substitute for understanding how
things work.

Post by zen cycle
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

It's fairly easy to identify a genuine expert online. Every specialty
has its vocabulary, acronyms, buzzword, metaphors, trade jargon,
slang, etc. All of these change constantly. An expert in a specialty
will use all the right terms, in the correct context, and in a manner
consistent with the general information available on the specialty.
That's certainly not Tom with his "light lines", PWM, mis-spelled
company names, etc. It is possible to use Google or ChatGPT to
produce a number of buzzwords, but without the background knowledge as
to what they really mean and how they are used by people in the
specialty, they are useless and usually result in a word salad.

An ex-pert is somebody who used to be pert. I was never pert, so,
therefore,.......
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pert

That idiot continually shows thangs that prove my point and doesn't even bother to read them to see that he was wrong. The one reference he gave to the PARK district said that the Lagoon that he spent years, now, saying never existed, said that the "LAGOON" was one and a half acres. Is he so stupid that he thinks that is a small area behind the dam that is now mud?

He was calling me a liar for saying that the road I was riding on was largely covered in mud from the heavy rains when that ass has never even been in the Hayward hills and looked it up on Google Earth and pretended that a picture taken months or even years before was an accurate representation of conditions there.

This guy has so many loose screws that he could stock a hardware store. Why do you suppose that he would brag about a 4 year degree that took him 6 years full time to earn and for which he never learned a thing that would allow him to work a job in his major?

[Tom Kunich]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 06:28:21 -0400, zen cycle
(chomp)

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Tom left the EXIF data on one of his photos. Tom owned a Samsung
smartphone, which qualifies him as "experienced".
Samsung SM-A516V
f/2 1/141 4.6mm ISO50
That's a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a51_5g_uw-10371.php>
The "A" series phones are considered mid-range.
<https://www.samsung.com/uk/mobile-phone-buying-guide/samsung-phone-ranges-explained/>
Support for this phone ended in June 2024.
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_ends_support_for_the_galaxy_a51_5g_a41_and_m01-news-63142.php>
Unfortunately, I've owned and repaired a fair number Samsung phones
over the years. One former customer would give me his old Samsung
phone when he upgraded to a newer Samsung phone. I think I have 3 or
4 such phones. In this case, repeating the same mistake over and over
again was not a sign of insanity, but rather was a sign of customer
loyalty. I did have problems with "updating firmware" but those were
the result of attempts to install custom ROM images. I did it to
myself a few times until I learned that the marginal benefits of a
jail-broken phone were not worth the effort.

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.

I currently own about six Garmin GPS devices, most of which might
still work. I didn't count them. Does owning six Garmin GPS devices
make me six times as qualified as Tom with only his Garmin 830? Having
experience is useful, but is not a substitute for understanding how
things work.

Post by zen cycle
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

It's fairly easy to identify a genuine expert online. Every specialty
has its vocabulary, acronyms, buzzword, metaphors, trade jargon,
slang, etc. All of these change constantly. An expert in a specialty
will use all the right terms, in the correct context, and in a manner
consistent with the general information available on the specialty.
That's certainly not Tom with his "light lines", PWM, mis-spelled
company names, etc. It is possible to use Google or ChatGPT to
produce a number of buzzwords, but without the background knowledge as
to what they really mean and how they are used by people in the
specialty, they are useless and usually result in a word salad.
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Do you even have a clue what you're talking about? Or do you think that meaningless noise makes you special?

[cyclintom]

Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Sat, 3 Aug 2024 06:28:21 -0400, zen cycle
(chomp)

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Tom left the EXIF data on one of his photos. Tom owned a Samsung
smartphone, which qualifies him as "experienced".
Samsung SM-A516V
f/2 1/141 4.6mm ISO50
That's a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a51_5g_uw-10371.php>
The "A" series phones are considered mid-range.
<https://www.samsung.com/uk/mobile-phone-buying-guide/samsung-phone-ranges-explained/>
Support for this phone ended in June 2024.
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_ends_support_for_the_galaxy_a51_5g_a41_and_m01-news-63142.php>
Unfortunately, I've owned and repaired a fair number Samsung phones
over the years. One former customer would give me his old Samsung
phone when he upgraded to a newer Samsung phone. I think I have 3 or
4 such phones. In this case, repeating the same mistake over and over
again was not a sign of insanity, but rather was a sign of customer
loyalty. I did have problems with "updating firmware" but those were
the result of attempts to install custom ROM images. I did it to
myself a few times until I learned that the marginal benefits of a
jail-broken phone were not worth the effort.

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.

I currently own about six Garmin GPS devices, most of which might
still work. I didn't count them. Does owning six Garmin GPS devices
make me six times as qualified as Tom with only his Garmin 830? Having
experience is useful, but is not a substitute for understanding how
things work.

Post by zen cycle
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

It's fairly easy to identify a genuine expert online. Every specialty
has its vocabulary, acronyms, buzzword, metaphors, trade jargon,
slang, etc. All of these change constantly. An expert in a specialty
will use all the right terms, in the correct context, and in a manner
consistent with the general information available on the specialty.
That's certainly not Tom with his "light lines", PWM, mis-spelled
company names, etc. It is possible to use Google or ChatGPT to
produce a number of buzzwords, but without the background knowledge as
to what they really mean and how they are used by people in the
specialty, they are useless and usually result in a word salad.
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I misspell company names fur even though you've never held an engineering job and you cannot make citations that do not return an "Error 404" you consider yourself a genius.

[Tom Kunich]

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Remember that Frank knows ZERO about technology and that doesn't stop him from talking about it.

Constantly pontificate on subjects you have no experience with.

Post by Tom Kunich
Hold the power button on until it announces that it is turning off and then after 10 seconds or so turn it back on. Your problem is no doubt an incomplete restart after the firmware update.

Bullshit

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

Flunky, I see that you and Lie-ermann, have to show your lack of electronics knowledge at every opportunity. That must be because you find software so boring.

[cyclintom]

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Remember that Frank knows ZERO about technology and that doesn't stop him from talking about it.

Constantly pontificate on subjects you have no experience with.

Post by Tom Kunich
Hold the power button on until it announces that it is turning off and then after 10 seconds or so turn it back on. Your problem is no doubt an incomplete restart after the firmware update.

Bullshit

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

You insist on your entire false reality. I suggest you go sign off some more QC papers for your snow blower company that someone else actually did.

[Zen Cycle]

Post by cyclintom

Post by zen cycle

Post by Tom Kunich
Remember that Frank knows ZERO about technology and that doesn't stop him from talking about it.

Constantly pontificate on subjects you have no experience with.

Post by Tom Kunich
Hold the power button on until it announces that it is turning off and then after 10 seconds or so turn it back on. Your problem is no doubt an incomplete restart after the firmware update.

Bullshit

Post by Tom Kunich
These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.

It happens occasionally, but not as a regular 'feature'. If it were to
happen as aoften as you incorrectly think, every device everywhere would
be having restart after update issues constantly. Newsflash sparky, they
don't.

Post by Tom Kunich
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

The fact that you own a garmin doesn't qualify you as a garmin expert.
In fact, your constant problems misunderstanding how these systems
operate completely contradicts any advice you may have to give on the
subject (or any subject, for that matter).
Your constant misinformed postings qualify you as no more than an idiot.

You insist on your entire false reality. I suggest you go sign off some more QC papers for your snow blower company that someone else actually did.

Still waiting for that link that shows Abbot makes insulin....

[cyclintom]

Post by Jeff Liebermann

Post by Tom Kunich
The 830 is nearly bulletproof.

What caliber and weight bullet? I would think a .22LR would go
through the Garmin 830 screen, shields, PCB and case. No need for an
AR something or other.

Post by Tom Kunich
It is VERY difficult to get moisture inside the case

Have you tried a leak test? How do you know it's difficult to get
moisture inside the case? I previously described how to pump water
into just about any "sealed" enclosure using nothing more than
temperature differential and a partial vacuum.

Post by Tom Kunich
and the components are uncased IC's that have a PC board that is sealed.

<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Garmin+830+Display+Replacement/139467>
<https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/gdqRcKMMWmtkQXUi.large>
I don't see any COB (chips on board) IC's as is common with cheap junk
(i.e. most consumer weather stations). Touch the epoxy blob the chip
is dead. How did you know that the IC's were "uncased"? Did you open
the 830 and look inside? If so, do you have any photos?
Also, I don't see any evidence of a conformal coating on the PCB
(printed circuit board) in the above photo. Hard coating a flexible
ribbon cable doesn't work very well.

Post by Tom Kunich
Remember that Frank knows ZERO about technology and that doesn't stop him from talking about it.
Hold the power button on until it announces that it is turning off and then after 10 seconds or so turn it back on. Your problem is no doubt an incomplete restart after the firmware update. These cheap operating systems like the Galaxy smartphone and the Garmin series have a million restart bugs in the updating firmware.
Or you can believe the guys that never owned a Garmin. Krygowski or Liebermann.

I owned Garmin GPS 45, GPS 95 and GPS 76 GPS's. Over the years, I've
worked on other Garmin models, mostly those used in marine navigation.
(I didn't own them). Most of these became worthless on Aug 21, 1999,
when the GPS week number reset to zero and firmware went insane.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_week_number_rollover>
Garmin didn't feel obligated to update the firmware of their older
models and expected soon to be former customers to purchase the latest
model GPS. I have more recent model GPS's, but I don't want to take
inventory today. Maybe later because the pile of GPS receivers and
antennas would make an interesting photo.
Drivel: A little extra protection perhaps?
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/313584188487>
--
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Why do you try so hard to seem smart? The Garmin's are powered by Lithium Ion batteries. Tell us what happens if a Lithium Ion battery is exposed to moisture? That's right - they have the SAME effect that Flunky denies of burning automobiles into lumps of detritus on the pavements which he then denies were ever cars despite being car shaped in the scorched asphalt.

There is something really wrong with you and it is never going to be fixed.

[Ted Heise]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 21:43:06 -0000 (UTC),

Post by Ted Heise
Hi all,
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very few
(if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the altimeter
has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its stored home
location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride, but then it
starts climbing on its own and then descending--with no reflection
of the real elevation.
Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I never
saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646
and here's the proper profile from the route...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I haven't
tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

Following up on this saga, the unit has worked quite well since
resetting, except this morning it was completely dead and would
not turn on until I'd held down the power button for a long time.
And then it took quite a while to re-acquire satellites.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Post by Ted Heise
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 21:43:06 -0000 (UTC),

Post by Ted Heise
Hi all,
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very few
(if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the altimeter
has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its stored home
location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride, but then it
starts climbing on its own and then descending--with no reflection
of the real elevation.
Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I never
saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646
and here's the proper profile from the route...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I haven't
tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

Following up on this saga, the unit has worked quite well since
resetting, except this morning it was completely dead and would
not turn on until I'd held down the power button for a long time.
And then it took quite a while to re-acquire satellites.

This might offer some clues:
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/240171/device-won-t-turn-on-won-t-reset>
(two pages) Skimming the forum questions, failure to restart was a
fairly common complain 4 years ago. There are suggestions that it
might be fixed with a firmware update, but nobody has posted that
updating the firmware actually fixed the problem. One poster claimed
that suceeded in reviving his 830 by cleaning the charging port when
the power button pushing fix didn't work.

[cyclintom]

Post by Ted Heise
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 21:43:06 -0000 (UTC),

Post by Ted Heise
Hi all,
I've used a Garmin Edge 830 for several years now with very few
(if any) real problems, but the last couple of rides the altimeter
has gone crazy. It takes the elevation for its stored home
location (692 ft) just fine when I start the ride, but then it
starts climbing on its own and then descending--with no reflection
of the real elevation.
Here's the profile that shows for the ride today (FWIW, I never
saw the unit display anything over the mid 900s)...
https://ridewithgps.com/trips/207523646
and here's the proper profile from the route...
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/47703480
Anyone seen this before or have suggestions? And no, I haven't
tried resetting the unit yet, but do plan to.

Following up on this saga, the unit has worked quite well since
resetting, except this morning it was completely dead and would
not turn on until I'd held down the power button for a long time.
And then it took quite a while to re-acquire satellites.
--

Alls well that ends well.