Rohloff Hubs: Can't stop slow oil leak

[(Pete Cresswell)]

I know this is kind of off-the-wall for 99% of the NG's readers, but
in the past I've seen posts from other Rohloff users... so...

I don't think it's the hubs. I think it's something I'm not doing, or doing
wrong.

Rationale: I've got two of the things with serial numbers a couple
years apart and they're behaving the same....

I've installed the two little gaskets that're supposed to prevent oil leaking
past the axle plate or the shifting box numerous times, but to no avail.
Tried coating them with Form-A-Gasket, to no avail.

I've been around and around with Rohloff USA, but haven't gotten
anywhere except to be fairly sure that I'm putting the gaskets
in the right place. A picture sure would help, but nobody's
come up with anything yet....

Nothing's getting past the axle plates (i.e. the larger of the two gaskets).
It seems more like it's getting past the smaller gasket - but I don't know how
to prove or disprove that suspicion.

It seems like the shifting box is filling up with oil and then it's working it's
way through the bronze or brass thing that holds the bearing that goes around
the shaft that the cable box rotates; then it runs into the cable box and
dribbles out through the joint formed when the cable box is attached to the
shifting box.

The shifting box is hanging down, so that probably helps with the flow...

Has anybody else had this problem and solved it? I've about run out
of alternatives except for figuring out how many miles per CC I'm getting
and just topping up the hub every so often...

--
Pete (Why Me?) Cresswell

[Carl Fogel]

Post by (Pete Cresswell)
I know this is kind of off-the-wall for 99% of the NG's readers, but
in the past I've seen posts from other Rohloff users... so...
I don't think it's the hubs. I think it's something I'm not doing, or doing
wrong.
Rationale: I've got two of the things with serial numbers a couple
years apart and they're behaving the same....
I've installed the two little gaskets that're supposed to prevent oil leaking
past the axle plate or the shifting box numerous times, but to no avail.
Tried coating them with Form-A-Gasket, to no avail.
I've been around and around with Rohloff USA, but haven't gotten
anywhere except to be fairly sure that I'm putting the gaskets
in the right place. A picture sure would help, but nobody's
come up with anything yet....
Nothing's getting past the axle plates (i.e. the larger of the two gaskets).
It seems more like it's getting past the smaller gasket - but I don't know how
to prove or disprove that suspicion.
It seems like the shifting box is filling up with oil and then it's working it's
way through the bronze or brass thing that holds the bearing that goes around
the shaft that the cable box rotates; then it runs into the cable box and
dribbles out through the joint formed when the cable box is attached to the
shifting box.
The shifting box is hanging down, so that probably helps with the flow...
Has anybody else had this problem and solved it? I've about run out
of alternatives except for figuring out how many miles per CC I'm getting
and just topping up the hub every so often...

Dear Pete,

Searching through the newsgroup archives led to this
post and possibly a fellow sufferer with a solution.
Sorry for the full quote, but I get confused by all
the addresses and whose server shows what. Browse
down to "oil seepage" and perhaps email Oliver.

Carl Fogel

#######################

From: Oliver (***@ameritech.net)
Subject: Re: Rohloff and Horst link FS bikes...

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: 2003-01-07 07:36:23 PST

Post by (Pete Cresswell)
While taking this for its shakedown cruise yesterday, I had the chain
pop off the front ring twice on bumpy descents. I'm going to try
remedying this by removing another link or two (tensioner had plenty
of travel left at the bottom of suspension at current chain length).
If that doesn't work than I'll need a chainguide up front to keep
things together. The Evil guides look good-something to keep the
chain from jumping to the side.

Rohloff recogizes chain jump as a problem on extreme terrain, and they
now offer a chain guide to solve this problem. Previously, they
recommended using the derailleur component (I don't know the right name)
properly positioned as a chain guide.

I have had chain jump on two occassions in the past when I went over
bumps which were not extreme -- I am not an exteme rider. My analysis
of the problem was:

* I had a dirty chain tensioner.
* When approaching a bump, such as tree roots across a towpath trail, I
would back pedal slightly to get a horizontal position on the pedals.
* This would cause chain slack on the top due to the dirty tensioner,
and facilitate chain jump as I went over the bump.

Keeping the chain tensioner clean seems to have solved the problem.

I have two Speedhubs, and love them. My only complaints are: 1) some
oil seepage (especially when flying) which has been solved by having the
seals replace by Rohloff; and, 2) Some noise (Rohloff says "humming" in
the lower gears when the 3rd planetary assembly is engaged, especially
in 7 and 6 when under load (ie uphill or into a headwind.)

However, those are minor items. I love the even spacing and the quick
smooth shifting even when going uphill.

Much of the above information has been obtained from the German language
portion of the Rohloff Web Site, www.rohloff.de
--
Cheers! OliverS
When replying personally, remove "_removespam_"

#################################

[OliverS]

I stand by what I wrote earlier. With the replacement of the oil seals
by Rohloff in California, leakage no longer is a problem, even when the
bikes go flying. We took two trips this year, one to the "Inland
Northwest", and one to Spain. I still love the Rohloff Speedhub,
notwithstanding the minor annoyances. Contact Rohloff USA or the
factory in Germany. As for the English ability at the factory, I don't
know. I have always communicated with them in German.

Post by Carl Fogel

Post by (Pete Cresswell)
I know this is kind of off-the-wall for 99% of the NG's readers, but
in the past I've seen posts from other Rohloff users... so...
I don't think it's the hubs. I think it's something I'm not doing, or doing
wrong.
Rationale: I've got two of the things with serial numbers a couple
years apart and they're behaving the same....
I've installed the two little gaskets that're supposed to prevent oil leaking
past the axle plate or the shifting box numerous times, but to no avail.
Tried coating them with Form-A-Gasket, to no avail.
I've been around and around with Rohloff USA, but haven't gotten
anywhere except to be fairly sure that I'm putting the gaskets
in the right place. A picture sure would help, but nobody's
come up with anything yet....
Nothing's getting past the axle plates (i.e. the larger of the two gaskets).
It seems more like it's getting past the smaller gasket - but I don't know how
to prove or disprove that suspicion.
It seems like the shifting box is filling up with oil and then it's working it's
way through the bronze or brass thing that holds the bearing that goes around
the shaft that the cable box rotates; then it runs into the cable box and
dribbles out through the joint formed when the cable box is attached to the
shifting box.
The shifting box is hanging down, so that probably helps with the flow...
Has anybody else had this problem and solved it? I've about run out
of alternatives except for figuring out how many miles per CC I'm getting
and just topping up the hub every so often...

Dear Pete,
Searching through the newsgroup archives led to this
post and possibly a fellow sufferer with a solution.
Sorry for the full quote, but I get confused by all
the addresses and whose server shows what. Browse
down to "oil seepage" and perhaps email Oliver.
Carl Fogel
#######################
Subject: Re: Rohloff and Horst link FS bikes...
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: 2003-01-07 07:36:23 PST

Post by (Pete Cresswell)
While taking this for its shakedown cruise yesterday, I had the chain
pop off the front ring twice on bumpy descents. I'm going to try
remedying this by removing another link or two (tensioner had plenty
of travel left at the bottom of suspension at current chain length).
If that doesn't work than I'll need a chainguide up front to keep
things together. The Evil guides look good-something to keep the
chain from jumping to the side.

Rohloff recogizes chain jump as a problem on extreme terrain, and they
now offer a chain guide to solve this problem. Previously, they
recommended using the derailleur component (I don't know the right name)
properly positioned as a chain guide.
I have had chain jump on two occassions in the past when I went over
bumps which were not extreme -- I am not an exteme rider. My analysis
* I had a dirty chain tensioner.
* When approaching a bump, such as tree roots across a towpath trail, I
would back pedal slightly to get a horizontal position on the pedals.
* This would cause chain slack on the top due to the dirty tensioner,
and facilitate chain jump as I went over the bump.
Keeping the chain tensioner clean seems to have solved the problem.
I have two Speedhubs, and love them. My only complaints are: 1) some
oil seepage (especially when flying) which has been solved by having the
seals replace by Rohloff; and, 2) Some noise (Rohloff says "humming" in
the lower gears when the 3rd planetary assembly is engaged, especially
in 7 and 6 when under load (ie uphill or into a headwind.)
However, those are minor items. I love the even spacing and the quick
smooth shifting even when going uphill.
Much of the above information has been obtained from the German language
portion of the Rohloff Web Site, www.rohloff.de
--
Cheers! OliverS
When replying personally, remove "_removespam_"
#################################

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/

Post by OliverS
Contact Rohloff USA or the
factory in Germany. As for the English ability at the factory,

I contacted them.

What happened was this:

1) Couple years ago, it came time for the annual flushing/oil replacement
recommended by Rohloff.

2) I sent in my fifteen bucks or whatever and got the little 30ml bottle of oil
and a slightly larger one of kerosene.

3) I squirte the kero in, rode for awhile, then pulled everything out that would
come out.

4) I put in the 30ml of new oil.

5) I bought a 1-liter can of oil to save money on subsequent changes.

6) Some time for some reason, I had occasion to withdraw "all" the oil from the
hub and noted that there was only about 15cc in the syringe.

"All" because unbeknownst to Yours Truly, if the hub isn't flushed with
kerosene, about 15cc of oil remains in the hub and will not come out on it's own
- it's clinging to the square meter or so of surface area of the various parts
within the hub.

Figuring that the thing must've lost oil somehow, I dutifully topped the syringe
up to 30cc and injected same into the hub.

7) Now the hub had 45cc of oil in it and my troubles began....


8) I got the spiel from Roholoff.

9) I withdrew all the oil that would come out, squirted all but about 10cc of it
back into the can, then returned the 10cc into the hub - leaving (I hope) about
25cc of oil in there. Actually, per the tech support guy at Roholoff, it
doesn't even need that....but now I can tell if the thing has enough oil - of
anything at all comes out, there's enough oil.


Case closed: user RCI.

[B17 GUY]

The whole discussion reminds me of the line I heard from an aircraft engine
mecanic referring to large radial engines.

"If there ain't on it there ain't oil in it."

B17GUY
College Park MD

[Carl Fogel]

Post by (Pete Cresswell)
RE/

Post by OliverS
Contact Rohloff USA or the
factory in Germany. As for the English ability at the factory,

I contacted them.
1) Couple years ago, it came time for the annual flushing/oil replacement
recommended by Rohloff.
2) I sent in my fifteen bucks or whatever and got the little 30ml bottle of oil
and a slightly larger one of kerosene.
3) I squirte the kero in, rode for awhile, then pulled everything out that would
come out.
4) I put in the 30ml of new oil.
5) I bought a 1-liter can of oil to save money on subsequent changes.
6) Some time for some reason, I had occasion to withdraw "all" the oil from the
hub and noted that there was only about 15cc in the syringe.
"All" because unbeknownst to Yours Truly, if the hub isn't flushed with
kerosene, about 15cc of oil remains in the hub and will not come out on it's own
- it's clinging to the square meter or so of surface area of the various parts
within the hub.
Figuring that the thing must've lost oil somehow, I dutifully topped the syringe
up to 30cc and injected same into the hub.
7) Now the hub had 45cc of oil in it and my troubles began....
8) I got the spiel from Roholoff.
9) I withdrew all the oil that would come out, squirted all but about 10cc of it
back into the can, then returned the 10cc into the hub - leaving (I hope) about
25cc of oil in there. Actually, per the tech support guy at Roholoff, it
doesn't even need that....but now I can tell if the thing has enough oil - of
anything at all comes out, there's enough oil.
Case closed: user RCI.

Dear Pete,

It belatedly occurs to me to wonder why the
oil in a Rohloff needs changing in the first
place.

The oil's not getting hot and degrading. It's
not sweeping combustion chambers or exposed to
exhaust gases or gasoline, so what goes wrong
it? Worn-off metal particles?

The mechanism is sealed, isn't it, apart from
what leaks out?

Carl Fogel

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/

Post by Carl Fogel
The oil's not getting hot and degrading. It's
not sweeping combustion chambers or exposed to
exhaust gases or gasoline, so what goes wrong
it? Worn-off metal particles?
The mechanism is sealed, isn't it, apart from
what leaks out?

Effectively, I'd say it's 100% sealed (i.e. although some can weep out, I can't
imagine anything getting in).

Why change? Dunno....maybe it's CYA by somebody somewhere...but I don't know
enough about this stuff to differ with the instruction manual.

In fact, I'm probably a product designer's worst dream..."The Kiss Of Death",
so-to-speak - as witnessed by this, my latest exploit. And those hubs *are*
pricy little things...

[Tom Ace]

Post by (Pete Cresswell)

Post by Carl Fogel
The oil's not getting hot and degrading. It's
not sweeping combustion chambers or exposed to
exhaust gases or gasoline, so what goes wrong
it? Worn-off metal particles?
The mechanism is sealed, isn't it, apart from
what leaks out?

Effectively, I'd say it's 100% sealed (i.e. although some can weep out, I can't
imagine anything getting in).

Maybe some moisture can get in, if not droplets then at
least humid air. Over time, moisture forms acids in oil,
which is part of the reason why cars that aren't driven
much still need oil changes. But I don't know whether
that's what Rohloff is concerned about when they give
an oil change schedule.

In any case, a Speedhub oil change isn't that hard to do.
What I want to know is, does the hub really need the
special Rohloff-brand oil.

Tom Ace

[Carl Fogel]

Post by Tom Ace

Post by (Pete Cresswell)

Post by Carl Fogel
The oil's not getting hot and degrading. It's
not sweeping combustion chambers or exposed to
exhaust gases or gasoline, so what goes wrong
it? Worn-off metal particles?
The mechanism is sealed, isn't it, apart from
what leaks out?

Effectively, I'd say it's 100% sealed (i.e. although some can weep out, I can't
imagine anything getting in).

Maybe some moisture can get in, if not droplets then at
least humid air. Over time, moisture forms acids in oil,
which is part of the reason why cars that aren't driven
much still need oil changes. But I don't know whether
that's what Rohloff is concerned about when they give
an oil change schedule.
In any case, a Speedhub oil change isn't that hard to do.
What I want to know is, does the hub really need the
special Rohloff-brand oil.
Tom Ace

Dear Tom,

Aha! Sounds reasonable to me. Time to change my oil
in other devices.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/

Post by Tom Ace
What I want to know is, does the hub really need the
special Rohloff-brand oil.

The spiel I got was that the hub contains some non-metallic parts that can be
damaged by the wrong oil. They say something similar about flushing it - that
very pure kerosene is required.

[g.daniels]

very pure kerosene is required.
ah pure kero. i saw that in a western once. threw the stuff all over
the set and burned it to the..
my first LBS experience of note was asking the mechanic how to change
the oil in a three speed shimano rear hub off course because oils
build up... blah blah and it was XXX years old and further.
(A)the mechanic began alterantely weeping and quietly screaming to
never ever change oil on a three speed shimano.
i nodded and ran from the shop.
two years later i spoke lawrence of arabia proud brough-muculla owner
and observed him taking the broughs three speed apart for inspection.
lets see what'll i do today right?
i came back several days later and asked how the hub inspection
went(see paragraph (A) and i'm still waiting for an answer four years
later.
i take it that disassembly shud not be done in the dark or with a
hole running to the underground within several feet.

[M-Gineering import & framebouw]

Post by (Pete Cresswell)
I know this is kind of off-the-wall for 99% of the NG's readers, but
in the past I've seen posts from other Rohloff users... so...

snip

Mail your question to Rohloff in Germany . They speak english and deal
with enquiries promptly
--
Marten

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/

Post by M-Gineering import & framebouw
Mail your question to Rohloff in Germany . They speak english and deal
with enquiries promptly

Thanks for the suggestion. It took awhile, but I finally dug an email address
out of the web site.

Rohloff responded promptly and intelligently.

It's looking to me like there a number of interrelated issues:

1) The 30ml of oil supplied in the small oil refill bottle appears excessive.

2) The hub actually needs only 13-15ml of oil - which is the amount that is
spread over all the parts, which gives 100% of the required lubrication and
corrosion protection, and which will never completely drain out.

3) The shifting rod bearing inherantly seeps oil. If there's enough extra in
the hub, it's coming out through that bearing.

4) (strictly own guess) Orienting the shifting box so that the shifting rod
bearing is hanging downward instead of upwards aggravates the problem.


Unless/until I find out otherwise, I'm going to take the following approach:

a) Rotate the cranks backwards in gear 7 for a couple of minutes to
fully-distribute what oil there is (per the flushing instructions that came with
a 1-liter can of Oil Of Rohloff that I bought awhile ago...)

b) Immediately hook up the syringe and pull all the oil out that will come out
at the moment.

c) Squirt maybe 5-10 ml of whatever comes out back in and save the rest.

d) Give it a few hundred miles, then loop back to (a) and see what comes out.

[Nick Payne]

Both of my Rohloff hubs leaked oil out along the quick release. I fixed it
by putting a couple of 5mm O-rings on each end of the quick release to seal
the gap between axle and QR. If you remove the wheel from the frame and undo
the quick release, is its' shaft covered in oil? If so, your problem is
probably the same.

Nick

Post by (Pete Cresswell)
I know this is kind of off-the-wall for 99% of the NG's readers, but
in the past I've seen posts from other Rohloff users... so...

[g.daniels]

they all do that

[Tom Ace]

Post by g.daniels
they all do that

Mine doesn't.

[Mark Hickey]

Post by Tom Ace

Post by g.daniels
they all do that

Mine doesn't.

Maybe it's out of oil?

;-)

Mark "couldn't help myself" Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

[Ryan Cousineau]

Post by Mark Hickey

Post by Tom Ace

Post by g.daniels
they all do that

Mine doesn't.

Maybe it's out of oil?
;-)
Mark "couldn't help myself" Hickey

I think you're missing the real shocker, Mark: G. Daniels made a
completely coherent post!

G.: add punctuation and capital letters, and you'll be fully literate.
Way to go!

[Ted Bennett]

Post by Ryan Cousineau

Post by Mark Hickey

Post by Tom Ace

Post by g.daniels
they all do that

Mine doesn't.

Maybe it's out of oil?
;-)
Mark "couldn't help myself" Hickey

I think you're missing the real shocker, Mark: G. Daniels made a
completely coherent post!
G.: add punctuation and capital letters, and you'll be fully literate.
Way to go!
--
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Hey, Ryan, G. Daniels is merely applying objectivist principles to
spelling and syntax, as befits a true independent thinker. Watch what
you say or I'll sic Wissler on you.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article

Post by Ted Bennett

Post by Ryan Cousineau

Post by Mark Hickey

Post by Tom Ace

Post by g.daniels
they all do that

Mine doesn't.

Maybe it's out of oil?
;-)
Mark "couldn't help myself" Hickey

I think you're missing the real shocker, Mark: G. Daniels made a
completely coherent post!
G.: add punctuation and capital letters, and you'll be fully literate.
Way to go!
--
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Hey, Ryan, G. Daniels is merely applying objectivist principles to
spelling and syntax, as befits a true independent thinker. Watch what
you say or I'll sic Wissler on you.

I don't care if Ayn Rand, L. Ron Hubbard, MSN Messenger, or Dr. Albert
Hoffman is responsible for Daniels' bad syntax. I just wish it would
stop. I always get the impression that there's a really smart mind in
there just waiting to communicate in a way that befits my attention.

[Mark Hickey]

Post by Ryan Cousineau

Post by Mark Hickey

Post by Tom Ace

Post by g.daniels
they all do that

Mine doesn't.

Maybe it's out of oil?
;-)
Mark "couldn't help myself" Hickey

I think you're missing the real shocker, Mark: G. Daniels made a
completely coherent post!
G.: add punctuation and capital letters, and you'll be fully literate.
Way to go!

I dunno... four words in a row could just be a coincidence. My TRS-80
compatible Eliza program did better than that!

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

[David Reuteler]

Mark Hickey <***@habcycles.com> wrote:
: I dunno... four words in a row could just be a coincidence. My TRS-80
: compatible Eliza program did better than that!

i stand by this post i made 1 year ago.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=reuteler+eliza&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&selm=3ddc415b%240%2422174%24a1866201%40newsreader.visi.com&rnum=1

[Ted Bennett]

Post by David Reuteler
: I dunno... four words in a row could just be a coincidence. My TRS-80
: compatible Eliza program did better than that!
i stand by this post i made 1 year ago.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=reuteler+eliza&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=
1&selm=3ddc415b%240%2422174%24a1866201%40newsreader.visi.com&rnum=1

Missed that last year, but it's still both topical and funny.

[Ryan Cousineau]

Post by David Reuteler
: I dunno... four words in a row could just be a coincidence. My TRS-80
: compatible Eliza program did better than that!
i stand by this post i made 1 year ago.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=reuteler+eliza&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=
1&selm=3ddc415b%240%2422174%24a1866201%40newsreader.visi.com&rnum=1

Yeah yeah, you're G. Daniels, and I'm Fabrizio Mazzoleni.

-RjC.

[David Reuteler]

Ryan Cousineau <***@sfu.ca> wrote:
: Yeah yeah, you're G. Daniels, and I'm Fabrizio Mazzoleni.

ding!

[g.daniels]

36 spoke wheels are ugly.

[David Reuteler]

g.daniels <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
: 36 spoke wheels are ugly.

bad fortran!

[Carl Fogel]

Post by g.daniels
36 spoke wheels are ugly.

Dear Gene,

To the male rattlesnake, the female rattlesnake is
the loveliest thing in nature.
--Bierce

Carl Fogel

[David Reuteler]

Ryan Cousineau <***@sfu.ca> wrote:
: Yeah yeah, you're G. Daniels, and I'm Fabrizio Mazzoleni.

actually ryan you got me thinking. who the hell do you suppose is doing
carl fogel?

[Carl Fogel]

Post by David Reuteler
: Yeah yeah, you're G. Daniels, and I'm Fabrizio Mazzoleni.
actually ryan you got me thinking. who the hell do you suppose is doing
carl fogel?

Dear David,

Bart Simpson?

Carl Fogel