fork crown race and headset cup installation without tool

[bicyclette]

Anybody know an improvised way to push on a fork crown race onto the
fork and push on a headset cup onto the frame without the expensive
tools, i.e. using regular tools. Hammering with rubber mallets etc. can
damage the parts, if Aluminum etc.

[Zog The Undeniable]

Post by bicyclette
Anybody know an improvised way to push on a fork crown race onto the
fork and push on a headset cup onto the frame without the expensive
tools, i.e. using regular tools. Hammering with rubber mallets etc. can
damage the parts, if Aluminum etc.

Fork crown - a piece of tubing with a square-cut end that just fits over
the steerer.

Head tube races - a piece of threaded rod, two nuts and some big washers
of the right size to fit the races. They should press on the hard
bearing surface, not the alloy cups. Or buy the Cyclus tool which isn't
really very expensive.

[bicyclette]

Zog,

Thanks!!! you are a genious! Do you know how to tell if you need facing
or reaming?

[Sorni]

Post by bicyclette
Zog,
Thanks!!! you are a genious! Do you know how to tell if you need facing
or reaming?

All I know is my first wife used to ream me when I got faced.

Bill "gotta lighten you techies up!" S.

[Zog The Undeniable]

Post by Sorni
All I know is my first wife used to ream me when I got faced.

Fantastic!

[Michael Dart]

Post by bicyclette
Zog,
Thanks!!! you are a genious! Do you know how to tell if you need facing
or reaming?

If it's a new frame have the shop you're buying it from do it. At least
just to remove the excess paint.

Mike

[S. Anderson]

Post by bicyclette
Zog,
Thanks!!! you are a genious! Do you know how to tell if you need facing
or reaming?

In general, if there was already a headset in there and you didn't have any
problems with it coming loose or binding, you can throw the new one in there
with some confidence. If you don't have those tools at hand and don't wanna
bother going to a shop to check it out, just throw it together and see how
it adjusts. Reaming generally isn't required unless you've got the wrong
headset or you're doing an initial prep on the frame.

Cheers,

Scott..

[John Thompson]

Post by bicyclette
Thanks!!! you are a genious! Do you know how to tell if you need facing
or reaming?

If, despite all attempts at adjustment, you cannot set the cups without
either leaving them with "play" or binding at some point in rotation you
will probably need to re-machine the faces. This can also result from
cups/races not being fully seated.

[bicyclette]

Post by John Thompson
If, despite all attempts at adjustment, you cannot set the cups without
either leaving them with "play" or binding at some point in rotation you
will probably need to re-machine the faces. This can also result from
cups/races not being fully seated.

I was wondering how to tell if the head tube opening was prepared
enough, before knocking the Cup in. i.e. if it is not and you try to
force it in would it damage the cup? Maybe I'm being overcautious. i.e.
is a visual inspection of the opening enough to say if it needs a bit of
filing/sanding?

[John Thompson]

Post by bicyclette
I was wondering how to tell if the head tube opening was prepared
enough, before knocking the Cup in. i.e. if it is not and you try to
force it in would it damage the cup? Maybe I'm being overcautious. i.e.
is a visual inspection of the opening enough to say if it needs a bit of
filing/sanding?

If there's paint on the ends of the head tube the frame hasn't been
prepped since it left the factory.

Otherwise Campagnolo makes tools (#731 and #732) that can quickly check if
the crown race seat and head tube are milled properly.

[ant]

Post by John Thompson
Campagnolo makes tools (#731 and #732) that can quickly check if
the crown race seat and head tube are milled properly.

im interested in these tools. how do they work? i assume the crown
race seat can be checked with calipers, but how does the campy
HT-facing-checker-tool work?

like a machinist's square? no, that would only work on a plain-jane
headtube. is there somewhere to see these campy tools online? or with
usage descriptions like the park site has?

anthony

[A Muzi]

Post by ant

Post by John Thompson
Campagnolo makes tools (#731 and #732) that can quickly check if
the crown race seat and head tube are milled properly.

im interested in these tools. how do they work?

-snip-

They are known in other industries as 'go-no go' gauges.
The head tube gauge has one end machined to the smallest
acceptable bore. The other end is just past the largest
acceptable bore. Your frame is OK when one side fits and
the other doesn't. The small side should sit flat and touch
all the way around the face.

The crown race tool is the inverse - it must slip over the
seat on one side but not the other. And Campagnolo in their
wisdom paints a nice tasteful red stripe on the 'no go' end
so it's multilingual (!)

[Pete Biggs]

Post by bicyclette
Anybody know an improvised way to push on a fork crown race onto the
fork and push on a headset cup onto the frame without the expensive
tools, i.e. using regular tools.

Crown race: Use another (steel) crown race upside down placed ontop of
new race as a tool (this should protect it and help even out any force).
Then use a tube or hammer carefully and evenly with screwdriver.

Cups: Home made presses can be difficult to get working well. I don't
think it's worth NOT using either a bike shop or a profeessional press.
The Cyclus one is a great investment if you plan to fit a few more
headsets in your lifetime. Same with the cup remover.

~PB

[MikeYankee]

I've done both successfully as follows, dozens of times:

Fork crown race: I use a length of PVC pipe that slides over the steerer tube,
and tap it with a mallet. Works quite well. It is important that the lower
end (the one that rests on the race) be trimmed absolutely square. Some
race/fork interfaces are very tight. It may help the fork in the freezer
beforehand to help (but first put a thin coat of grease or anti-seize on the
mating surface).

Headset cups: I improvised a press using of threaded stock, bolts and large
washers. A fine thread works best. You MUST ensure that the axis of the press
remains parallel to that of the head tube -- this can be the tricky part.

Headset cup removal: You didn't ask about this, but it's easy to make your own
"rocket" tool by cutting and flaring an old straight section of handlebar about
25 cm long. Mine is aluminum, and has to be reflared during and after use;
steel would probably be better.

With any of these makeshift tools it's important to work patiently, realizing
that you can indeed get a good result but only after two to three times the
amount of a time a professional mechanic using professional tools would take.


Mike Yankee

(Address is munged to thwart spammers.
To reply, delete everything after "com".)

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

eddie-<< Anybody know an improvised way to push on a fork crown race onto the
fork and push on a headset cup onto the frame without the expensive
tools, i.e. using regular tools. Hammering with rubber mallets etc. can
damage the parts, if Aluminum etc. >><BR><BR>

A reason why you cannot go to a decent bike shop and have them use their
'expensive' tools, that will cost ya about $5-$10???

Taking out the hammer and wood 'may' work but 'may' kill your HS and/or
frameset as well....which will be 'expensive'-

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
[phone]
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Sergio SERVADIO]

Post by Qui si parla Campagnolo
A reason why you cannot go to a decent bike shop and have them use their
'expensive' tools, that will cost ya about $5-$10???
Taking out the hammer and wood 'may' work but 'may' kill your HS and/or
frameset as well....which will be 'expensive'-

Lightheartedly.
He may not want to risk a car accident on the road, or perhaps he doesn't
have an automobile.

Seriously, now.
Provided you have some ingenuity, it is not hard to improvise the tools:
mallet, wood block, carpenter's clamp, or whatever.
You got to be careful, of course, but it isn't really difficult.

Just do it!

Sergio
Pisa

[Pete Biggs]

Post by Sergio SERVADIO
Provided you have some ingenuity, it is not hard to improvise the
tools: mallet, wood block, carpenter's clamp, or whatever.
You got to be careful, of course, but it isn't really difficult.

It can be very difficult indeed when the tool isn't good and the cups are
a very tight fit in the frame - particularly when the cups are aluminium
as they can be damaged easily.

~PB

[Sergio SERVADIO]

Post by Pete Biggs

Post by Sergio SERVADIO
Provided you have some ingenuity, it is not hard to improvise the
tools: mallet, wood block, carpenter's clamp, or whatever.
You got to be careful, of course, but it isn't really difficult.

It can be very difficult indeed when the tool isn't good and the cups are
a very tight fit in the frame - particularly when the cups are aluminium
as they can be damaged easily.

As always, difficulty is a relative notion.
When things appear to be too tight, brute force is not the solution.
Use flint paper on the frame and make it fit.
As simple as that.

Sergio
Pisa

[Pete Biggs]

Post by Sergio SERVADIO
As always, difficulty is a relative notion.
When things appear to be too tight, brute force is not the solution.
Use flint paper on the frame and make it fit.
As simple as that.

That's a good tip, but a certain amount of brute force is proper because
head cups are larger than the head tube they fit into in order to get a
good press fit. A perfectly fitting tool with large handles makes the job
*so* much easier and safer.

~PB

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Sergio-<< As always, difficulty is a relative notion.
When things appear to be too tight, brute force is not the solution.
Use flint paper on the frame and make it fit.
As simple as that. >><BR><BR>

This is bad advice. HS cups need to fit tightly, and the only way to ensure
they go in properly and straight, is to use the proper tool. Using cobbled
together HS press tools and finding it is tough to get them in, making the cup
smaller or the headtube bigger is NOT the answer...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
[phone]
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Sergio SERVADIO]

Post by Qui si parla Campagnolo
Sergio-<< As always, difficulty is a relative notion.
When things appear to be too tight, brute force is not the solution.
Use flint paper on the frame and make it fit.
As simple as that. >><BR><BR>
This is bad advice. HS cups need to fit tightly, and the only way to ensure
they go in properly and straight, is to use the proper tool. Using cobbled
together HS press tools and finding it is tough to get them in, making the cup
smaller or the headtube bigger is NOT the answer...

Well, Peter, is the problem a semantic one?
Or, pehaps, you did not read me carefully enough?

By the way, if the fit is TOO tight, there is no press tool that would do
the job in a safe manner.
It goes without saying that the fit should not be loose, either, but just
right tight.

So, when is it too tight?
How can one tell?
By trying to install it and feeling that it would require too much
(brute) force. Then he backs up, files it down and tries again.

I have installed enough headsets this way, and never fouled.
On the other hand, I once trashed a Shimano crown that a mechanic too
forcefully forced into my Bianchi frame: cracked.

Sergio
Pisa

[Pete Biggs]

Post by Sergio SERVADIO
By the way, if the fit is TOO tight, there is no press tool that would do
the job in a safe manner.

But too tight to manage with a relatively poor tool is not necessarily too
tight with a good tool as there is an acceptable *range* of tightness for
the headset & frame.

I think it's better to use a better tool rather than modify the frame or
headset. If head tube ID is increased, different cups in future may not
fit well. That or reducing cups can take quite some work anyway: not
easy, and not easy to build a *good* press.

~PB

[B.C. Cletta]

Post by Sergio SERVADIO
On the other hand, I once trashed a Shimano crown that a mechanic too
forcefully forced into my Bianchi frame: cracked.

so, where was the problem, the mechanic, the crown, or frame?
what would you have done different?
aren't you glad it happened in the shop?
isn't this what this thread is all about?

[A Muzi]

Post by Sergio SERVADIO

Post by Qui si parla Campagnolo
Sergio-<< As always, difficulty is a relative notion.
When things appear to be too tight, brute force is not the solution.
Use flint paper on the frame and make it fit.
As simple as that. >><BR><BR>
This is bad advice. HS cups need to fit tightly, and the only way to ensure
they go in properly and straight, is to use the proper tool. Using cobbled
together HS press tools and finding it is tough to get them in, making the cup
smaller or the headtube bigger is NOT the answer...

Well, Peter, is the problem a semantic one?
Or, pehaps, you did not read me carefully enough?
By the way, if the fit is TOO tight, there is no press tool that would do
the job in a safe manner.
It goes without saying that the fit should not be loose, either, but just
right tight.
So, when is it too tight?
How can one tell?
By trying to install it and feeling that it would require too much
(brute) force. Then he backs up, files it down and tries again.
I have installed enough headsets this way, and never fouled.
On the other hand, I once trashed a Shimano crown that a mechanic too
forcefully forced into my Bianchi frame: cracked.

In a shop, the mechanic uses the two-sided Campagnolo gauges
on the head tube bore and on the crown race seat first. If
the frame is machined properly, the cups and crown race are
pressed home. If the gauge says no, then milling is
required. None of this should be subjective.

I'm with Peter. Since a headset is only installed every
twelve or fiteen years, no reason not to have it pressed at
a competent shop. The service is normally "while you wait"
and only a couple of dollars. That's good insurance because
crooked/uneven headsets never adjust properly.

If you _want_ the shop to cut your fork to length, install
the headset, remount bars/stam and make the bike rideable,
be prepared for the product of the time/money equation. Note
also that if you bring us a frame that's not square, we do
charge you to mill it.

Pressing headset parts is quick and cheap when done
correctly with the proper gauges and tools. Even home
engine builders send out valve grinding. Some jobs are best
left to us IMHO.

To Segio's broken race story: Yes, paying an incompetent
shop would be the worst possible thing. You would both
spend the money _and_ have a screwed up headset!

[Sergio SERVADIO]

Post by A Muzi
I'm with Peter. Since a headset is only installed every
twelve or fiteen years, no reason not to have it pressed at
a competent shop.

If the question was whether it is valuable to learn the art to
do it once, I am wholly with you.
Else, I would encourage anyone to do it with those efficient, albeit
improvised, home-made tools.
By the way, is there a Campagnolo dedicated tool to _extract_ fork
crown races? I have never seen anyone use it, and I have devised
my own way to do the job.

Post by A Muzi
That's good insurance because
crooked/uneven headsets never adjust properly.

Agreed.
Though I never ruined any of the dozen I estimate I have installed.

Post by A Muzi
Pressing headset parts is quick and cheap when done
correctly with the proper gauges and tools.

Agreed, again.
But I did pass out tips to a couple of friends who, like me,
like to build up bicycles themselves and they even thanked me for
the tutoring.

Post by A Muzi
To Segio's broken race story: Yes, paying an incompetent
shop would be the worst possible thing. You would both
spend the money _and_ have a screwed up headset!

Very instructional, for me.
I did learn that shop was to be avoided, ever.

Sergio
Pisa

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Sergio-<< Else, I would encourage anyone to do it with those efficient, albeit
improvised, home-made tools. >><BR><BR>

Guess that's the rub. These are 'improvised' and not as efficient as those
'pro' tools made specifically for the job. Ya can't tell me that a big threaded
rod with some washers and nuts are as 'efficient' as my Campagnolo HS press
tool.

Sergio<< By the way, is there a Campagnolo dedicated tool to _extract_ fork
crown races? I have never seen anyone use it, and I have devised
my own way to do the job. >><BR><BR>


Yes, of course, Campagnolo part number UT-HS-060 except with all the goofy
forks and HS, the park tool works better. The mongo one.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
[phone]
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Sergio SERVADIO]

Post by Qui si parla Campagnolo
Sergio-<< Else, I would encourage anyone to do it with those efficient, albeit
improvised, home-made tools. >><BR><BR>
Guess that's the rub. These are 'improvised' and not as efficient as those
'pro' tools made specifically for the job. Ya can't tell me that a big threaded
rod with some washers and nuts are as 'efficient' as my Campagnolo HS press
tool.

Nevere said anything of that sort.
Plus, I surely don't use any 'big threaded rod'.

Sergio
Pisa

[Robin Hubert]

Post by Pete Biggs

Post by Sergio SERVADIO
Provided you have some ingenuity, it is not hard to improvise the
tools: mallet, wood block, carpenter's clamp, or whatever.
You got to be careful, of course, but it isn't really difficult.

It can be very difficult indeed when the tool isn't good and the cups are
a very tight fit in the frame - particularly when the cups are aluminium
as they can be damaged easily.

Yes, and some headsets have rather particular instructions. E.g., you can
screw up some headsets by applying force to the outer edge of the bearing
retaing section. Others suggest you *must* use the outside edge. King uses
a combined approach with insistence upon the use of special tools.

Robin Hubert

[Sergio SERVADIO]

Post by Robin Hubert
Yes, and some headsets have rather particular instructions. E.g., you can
screw up some headsets by applying force to the outer edge of the bearing
retaing section. Others suggest you *must* use the outside edge. King uses
a combined approach with insistence upon the use of special tools.

Well, lucky I never read any instruction leaflet.

The only dedicated tool I have is a teflon sheave, picked up from my junk
box, the inner bore being large enough for the fork tube to pass through.
I hit the sheave with a long metal cylinder. Believe me, teflon is a
wonderful material to press headsets.

But, foremost, make sure the fit is not too tight!

Sergio
Pisa

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Sergio-<< Seriously, now.
Provided you have some ingenuity, it is not hard to improvise the tools:
mallet, wood block, carpenter's clamp, or whatever.
You got to be careful, of course, but it isn't really difficult. >><BR><BR>

Sure but considering how often he does this(install or remove HS), and how long
to wander around and find all the things to fabricate these things...geeezzz,
just go to a bike shop and be done with it so you can, ya know, ride the
thing????

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
[phone]
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"